Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m.gyda’r Llywydd (Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m.with the Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.

The Presiding Officer: Good afternoon.

Y Llywydd: Prynhawn da.

Cwestiynau Cyllid i’r Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ
Finance Questions to the Minister for Finance and Leader of the House

Kenneth Skates: During the summer I visited a number of companies in my constituency, particularly manufacturers, both big and small. One issue raised with me by several of them was a problem concerning credit insurance. Even companies that have only ever operated in the black are now finding that credit rating agencies are elevating their borrowing risk to prohibitive levels. Could you examine ways of easing the strain caused by credit insurance costs due to credit reference agencies inflating the risk of lenders investing in businesses?

Kenneth Skates: Yn ystod yr haf, ymwelais â nifer o gwmnïau yn fy etholaeth, yn enwedig cynhyrchwyr, bach a mawr. Un mater a godwyd gyda mi gan nifer ohonynt yw problem sy'n ymwneud ag yswiriant credyd.  Mae hyd yn oed cwmnïau sydd wedi gweithredu erioed yn y du yn awr yn canfod bod asiantaethau statws credyd yn dyrchafu eu risg benthyca i lefelau afresymol. A allwch edrych ar ffyrdd o leddfu straen a achosir gan gostau yswiriant credyd o ganlyniad i asiantaethau cyfeirio credyd yn chwyddo'r risg i fenthycwyr o fuddsoddi mewn busnesau?

Jane Hutt: That is an important point, because we know that increasing pressure is being placed on individuals and their families due to rising costs. Important developments are taking place and I welcome what Conwy County Borough Council is doing in this respect with its local authority mortgage scheme. We have to assist people and ensure that they are not at the mercy of the greedy and unregulated loan sharks that are too often on the high street.   

Jane Hutt: Mae hwnnw'n bwynt pwysig, oherwydd gwyddom fod pwysau cynyddol yn cael ei roi ar unigolion a'u teuluoedd oherwydd costau cynyddol. Mae datblygiadau pwysig yn cael eu cynnal ac yr wyf yn croesawu'r hyn y mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy yn ei wneud yn hyn o beth gyda'i gynllun morgeisi awdurdodau lleol. Mae'n rhaid i ni gynorthwyo pobl a sicrhau nad ydynt ar drugaredd y siarcod benthyca barus nad ydynt yn cael eu rheoleiddio sy'n rhy aml ar y stryd fawr.   

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Un o’r sectorau pwysicaf yn Aberconwy, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun busnesau bach, yw’r sector twristiaeth. Yn yr hinsawdd economaidd sydd ohoni mae mwy o bobl yn dewis aros ym Mhrydain i gymryd eu gwyliau. A fyddech yn cytuno ei bod yn amserol ystyried sicrhau mwy o fuddsoddiad mewn twristiaeth er mwyn medru manteisio’n llawn ar y cyfle unigryw yn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni i dyfu’r sector hwnnw yng Nghymru?

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: One of the most important sectors in Aberconwy, particularly in the context of small businesses, is the tourism sector. In the current economic climate more people are choosing to take their holidays in Britain. Would you agree that it would be timely to look at ensuring more investment in tourism so that we can take full advantage of the unique opportunity that exists in the current climate to develop that sector in Wales?

Jane Hutt: That is another matter of priority, particularly for the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, who is responsible for tourism. We can look back over this summer to see the benefits that holidaying in Wales has brought. Against the backdrop of increasing pressure on our finances as a result of UK Government cuts, this is an area where we must ensure that we support businesses and, in order to do that, support tourism.

Jane Hutt: Mae hwnnw'n faes arall sy’n flaenoriaeth, yn enwedig ar gyfer y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth, sy'n gyfrifol am dwristiaeth. Gallwn edrych yn ôl dros yr haf i weld y manteision a ddaeth yn sgîl treulio gwyliau yng Nghymru. Yn erbyn y cefndir o gynyddu pwysau ar ein cyllid o ganlyniad i doriadau Llywodraeth y DU, mae hwn yn faes lle mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau ein bod yn cefnogi busnesau ac, er mwyn gwneud hynny, yn cefnogi twristiaeth.

Jane Hutt: Darren Millar is right to point to this important area of policy. The value of contracts advertised through the Welsh Government’s Sell2Wales website has now exceeded £15 billion and over 30,000 Welsh suppliers are registered and receive these opportunities. He also pointed to the importance of smaller-value contracts, and, last year, there was a 24 per cent growth in advertisements of such contracts and 21 of the last 40 construction contracts awarded, worth some £600 million, went to Welsh businesses. However, more can be done to simplify the process.

Jane Hutt: Mae Darren Millar yn iawn i dynnu sylw at y maes pwysig hwn o bolisi. Mae gwerth y contractau a hysbysebir trwy wefan GwerthwchiGymru Llywodraeth Cymru bellach yn uwch na £15 biliwn ac y mae dros 30,000 o gyflenwyr o Gymru wedi cofrestru ac yn derbyn y cyfleoedd hyn. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at bwysigrwydd contractau sydd â gwerth llai, ac, y llynedd, bu cynnydd o 24 y cant mewn hysbysebion am gontractau o'r fath ac enillwyd 21 o'r 40 contractau adeiladu diwethaf a ddyfarnwyd, sydd gwerth tua £600 miliwn, gan fusnesau Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae mwy y gellir ei wneud i symleiddio'r broses.

Alun Ffred Jones: Yr ydym wedi clywed tipyn am y ffaith bod hanner y cytundebau sy’n cael eu gosod yn y sector cyhoeddus yn mynd i gwmnïau o Gymru. O edrych ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, ymddengys i mi, o’r ymholiadau yr wyf wedi’u gwneud, fod llawer iawn o’r cytundebau hyn yn gytundebau Cymru a Lloegr ac yn cael eu gosod gan y GIG yn ganolog. A oes gennych chi ffigurau ynghylch faint o’r cytundebau a osodir gan y GIG yng Nghymru sy’n mynd i gwmnïau o Gymru?

Alun Ffred Jones: We have heard quite a lot about the fact that half the contracts let in the public sector go to companies from Wales. Looking at the health service, it appears to me, from the inquiries that I have made, that many of these contracts are England-and-Wales contracts and are let by the NHS centrally. Do you have any figures with regard to how many of the contracts let by the NHS in Wales go to companies from Wales?

Jane Hutt: I will raise that question directly with the Minister for Health and Social Services, so that she can report back to the Member on that point.

Jane Hutt: Byddaf yn codi'r cwestiwn hwnnw yn uniongyrchol gyda'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, er mwyn iddi adrodd yn ôl i'r Aelodau ar y pwynt hwnnw.

Jane Hutt: The Member for Llanelli, Keith Davies, is right on this point. The Welsh Government is seeking to maximise the resources available through European programmes. We are working with our partners in the private, public and third sectors to make the best use of European funds. I am also glad that I, as Minister for Finance, am able to assist in terms of targeted match funding, and am particularly pleased that I was able to put some of that funding into Llanelli in relation to regeneration.

Jane Hutt: Mae'r Aelod dros Lanelli, Keith Davies, yn iawn ar y pwynt hwn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ceisio gwneud y mwyaf o'r adnoddau sydd ar gael drwy raglenni Ewropeaidd. Rydym yn gweithio gyda'n partneriaid yn y sectorau preifat, cyhoeddus a'r trydydd sector i wneud y defnydd gorau o gronfeydd Ewropeaidd. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch fy mod, fel y Gweinidog Cyllid, yn gallu cynorthwyo o ran arian cyfatebol a dargedir, ac yr wyf yn arbennig o falch fy mod wedi gallu rhoi rhywfaint o'r arian hwnnw i mewn i Lanelli mewn perthynas ag adfywio.

Paul Davies: I am sure that you will appreciate that it is now more important than ever that the Welsh Government considers innovative ways of securing investment in capital projects, given the tight financial settlement that we face. Of course, one way of funding capital projects is through public-private partnerships. I recognise that the previous Welsh administration was openly against using private finance to fund capital projects. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us whether this administration will consider funding projects through public-private finance initiatives.

Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn sylweddoli ei bod yn bwysicach nag erioed bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried ffyrdd arloesol o sicrhau buddsoddiad mewn prosiectau cyfalaf, o ystyried y setliad ariannol tynn sy'n ein hwynebu. Wrth gwrs, un ffordd o ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf yw trwy bartneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat. Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod gweinyddiaeth flaenorol Cymru yn agored yn ei gwrthwynebiad o ran defnyddio arian preifat i ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Gweinidog ddweud wrthym a bydd y weinyddiaeth hon yn ystyried prosiectau cyllid trwy fentrau cyllid cyhoeddus-preifat.

Jane Hutt: The opposition finance spokesperson, Paul Davies, will recognise that interesting scrutiny was carried out by a select committee earlier in the summer, which identified how right we were not to progress with out-dated and inappropriate private finance initiatives, which would have landed us, the public sector and those we seek to support through our capital funds, in terms of schools and hospitals, in difficulty. This is a topical question from the opposition finance spokesperson, because we are now at a point, particularly given the International Monetary Fund warning of slashed global growth prospects, where there is a real challenge to the UK Government to enable us to invest more in capital. I hope that you will have some influence on the coalition Government to ensure that public sector capital, which we will be debating later on, can be used appropriately for the schemes that we want to support.

Jane Hutt: Bydd llefarydd cyllid yr wrthblaid, Paul Davies, yn cydnabod y bu i bwyllgor dethol wneud gwaith craffu diddorol yn gynharach yn yr haf a nododd ein bod yn llygaid ein lle i beidio â symud ymlaen â mentrau cyllid preifat hen ffasiwn ac amhriodol, a fyddai wedi ein gadael ni, y sector cyhoeddus a'r rhai yr ydym yn ceisio eu cefnogi drwy ein cronfeydd cyfalaf, o ran ysgolion ac ysbytai, mewn trafferth. Mae hwn yn gwestiwn amserol gan lefarydd cyllid yr wrthblaid, oherwydd yr ydym bellach wedi cyrraedd pwynt, yn enwedig o ystyried y rhybudd gan y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol o ran rhagolygon twf byd-eang gwaeth, lle mae her wirioneddol i Lywodraeth y DU er mwyn ein galluogi i fuddsoddi mwy o ran cyfalaf. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwch yn medru dylanwadu rhywfaint ar y Llywodraeth glymblaid i sicrhau bod cyfalaf y sector cyhoeddus, y byddwn yn ei drafod yn nes ymlaen, yn gallu cael ei ddefnyddio'n briodol ar gyfer y cynlluniau yr ydym am eu cefnogi.

Paul Davies: I am not sure whether that was a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ from the Minister. I appreciate that the Government is looking at other ways of funding capital projects, and, of course, another way of addressing this would be for the Welsh Government to make greater use of the capital available from the European Investment Bank. Will the Minister outline what discussions the Welsh Government has had with the European Investment Bank since the start of the fourth Assembly, and will she outline what plans she has to work with the European Investment Bank in the future?

Paul Davies: Nid wyf yn siŵr ai 'ie' neu 'na' oedd yr ymateb hwnnw gan y Gweinidog. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod y Llywodraeth yn edrych ar ffyrdd eraill o ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf, ac, wrth gwrs, ffordd arall o fynd i'r afael â hyn yw i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud mwy o ddefnydd o'r cyfalaf sydd ar gael gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop ers dechrau'r pedwerydd Cynulliad, a bydd yn amlinellu pa gynlluniau sydd ganddi i weithio gyda Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop yn y dyfodol?

1.45 p.m.

Jane Hutt: We have had discussions with the European Investment Bank since the Assembly passed our budget, and there were earlier discussions across the Cabinet with the European Investment Bank. They are key in ensuring, as we agreed in a unanimous motion in the Assembly in July, that we look for every possible source of funding to enable us to borrow and invest, including a request to the UK Government for borrowing powers to take this forward.

Jane Hutt: Yr ydym wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop ers i'r Cynulliad basio ein cyllideb, ac roedd trafodaethau cynharach ar draws y Cabinet gyda Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Maent yn allweddol er mwyn sicrhau, fel y cytunasom mewn cynnig unfrydol yn y Cynulliad ym mis Gorffennaf, ein bod yn edrych am bob ffynhonnell bosibl o gyllid i'n galluogi i fenthyca a buddsoddi, gan gynnwys cais i Lywodraeth y DU am bwerau benthyca i fwrw ymlaen â hyn. 

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): A yw’r Gweinidog yn sylweddoli bod ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer gwariant yn dibynnu’n llwyr ar ei gallu i godi mwy o arian cyfalaf y tu allan i’r bloc? Fe’i gwnaeth yn glir bod cytundeb ar draws y pleidiau yn cefnogi’r cais hwnnw. A all hi ddweud wrthym pa mor ffyddiog ydyw y bydd modd iddi gael mynediad i’r arian hwnnw yn ystod y Cynulliad hwn?

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Does the Minister realise that her spending priorities rely entirely on her ability to raise more capital funding outside of the block? She made it clear that there is cross-party agreement in support of such a move. Can she tell us how hopeful she is that she will have the means to access that funding during this Assembly?

 Jane Hutt: This is a topical and current priority for me and, I am sure, for the UK Government in terms of those worrying figures from the IMF. I am pleased that inter-governmental talks on seeking borrowing powers have commenced with the UK Government, as they will help us with the infrastructure plans that we are now developing. However, we are exploring the use of all innovative forms of investment in public infrastructure in Wales. Last week, Huw Lewis, the Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage, and I went to help launch the Welsh Housing Partnership, which has funding from the Principality building society—the first tenant was in Newport. That shows that we are making progress.

Jane Hutt: Mae hon yn flaenoriaeth amserol a chyfredol i mi ac, yr wyf yn siŵr, i Lywodraeth y DU o ran y ffigurau hynny o'r IMF sy'n peri pryder. Rwy'n falch bod trafodaethau rhynglywodraethol ar geisio pwerau benthyca wedi dechrau gyda Llywodraeth y DU, gan y byddant yn ein helpu gyda'r cynlluniau seilwaith yr ydym yn awr yn eu datblygu. Fodd bynnag, rydym yn archwilio'r defnydd o bob math arloesol o fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Yr wythnos diwethaf, aeth Huw Lewis, y Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth, a minnau i helpu lansio Partneriaeth Tai Cymru, sydd â chyllid o gymdeithas adeiladu'r Principality—roedd y tenant cyntaf yng Nghasnewydd. Mae hynny'n dangos ein bod yn gwneud cynnydd.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Yr wyf i’n deall ein bod yn gallu gwneud rhywfaint o gynnydd, ond mae’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod toriad o dros 40 y cant yn y cyfalaf sydd ar gael i’r Llywodraeth yn golygu na fydd nifer o’r cynlluniau a argymhellwyd gan y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf yn cael eu cyflawni, oni bai bod arian sylweddol yn dod i goffrau’r Llywodraeth. Mae’n rhaid i hynny ddigwydd gyda benthyca—yr ydym yn derbyn ei bod hi’n gweithio tuag at hynny—ac mae’n rhaid hefyd iddi fod yn arloesol wrth edrych ar sut yr ydym yn mynd i gael arian y tu allan i’r bloc nad yw’n arian yr ydym yn ei fenthyg. 

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I understand that we can make some progress, but the Minister will be aware that the 40 per cent cut in the capital funding available to the Government means that a number of the schemes recommended by the previous Government will not be delivered, unless a considerable amount of funding comes from the Government’s coffers. That has to happen through borrowing—we accept that she has been working towards that—and she must be innovative in looking at how we are going to get funding outside of the block that does not come through borrowing.

Mae hi’n ymwybodol inni wneud cynnig sydd wedi cael ei dderbyn fel posibilrwydd gwerth ei ystyried, sef Adeiladu Cymru, a all fod yn ffordd arloesol o edrych ar gael arian y tu allan i’r bloc. Oherwydd y ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan yn edrych ar arian cyfalaf, yr hyn sydd yn fy mhoeni yw ei bod yn debyg mai ar ôl cyfnod yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant y bydd yn rhoi mwy o arian i ni o safbwynt benthyca ac yn y blaen. Pa mor ffyddiog yw’r Gweinidog y cawn fynediad i’r arian cyfalaf ychwanegol hwnnw yn ystod tymor presennol yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr?

She will be aware of the proposal that we made, which has been accepted as a possibility worthy of consideration, namely Build for Wales, which could prove to be an innovative way of seeking funding outside of the block grant. Because of the way in which the Government at Westminster looks at capital funding, what troubles me is the likelihood that it will not be until after the comprehensive spending review that it will give us more funding with regard to borrowing and so on. How confident is the Minister that we will have access to that additional capital funding during the current round of the CSR?

 Jane Hutt: The Plaid Cymru spokesperson on finance is right that this is urgent—this is not to wait for the next spending review. You will recall that I issued a statement after the bilateral and quadrilateral meetings in July at which I met with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and pressed this very point. This is for now. I believe this issue is pressing on the UK Government as well with regard to the flexibility that even Vince Cable said was necessary to address the economic crisis that we are part of. I welcome the fact that he recognises the need for that flexibility, because I hope that that approach will bear fruit in the inter-governmental talks that have now commenced—the talks include borrowing as a key part. However, alongside that, we are developing our infrastructure plan.

Jane Hutt: Mae llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar gyllid yn iawn fod hyn yn un brys—ni all hwn aros tan yr adolygiad o wariant nesaf. Byddwch yn cofio imi gyhoeddi datganiad ar ôl y cyfarfodydd dwyochrog a phedrochr ym mis Gorffennaf, lle cwrddais â Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys a phwysleisiais yr union bwynt hwn. Mae hyn am y tro. Yr wyf yn credu fod y mater hwn yn pwyso ar Lywodraeth y DU hefyd o ran yr hyblygrwydd a ddywedodd hyd yn oed Vince Cable oedd yn angenrheidiol i fynd i'r afael â'r argyfwng economaidd yr ydym yn rhan ohono. Croesawaf y ffaith ei fod yn cydnabod yr angen am yr hyblygrwydd hwnnw, oherwydd yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y dull gweithredu yn dwyn ffrwyth yn y trafodaethau rhynglywodraethol sydd bellach wedi cychwyn—mae’r trafodaethau yn cynnwys benthyca fel rhan allweddol. Fodd bynnag, ochr yn ochr â hynny, yr ydym yn datblygu ein cynllun seilwaith.

Peter Black: Minister, you know that the Welsh Government is already using PFI schemes, for example, for building doctors’ surgeries, and the Minister for Health and Social Services has said that she is relaxed about the use of private facilities in the health service, particularly in orthopaedics. I think this pretence that it is all public sector and no private is a little disingenuous. I want to ask you about the innovation work that you are pursuing to raise capital moneys. Clearly, PFI is not an option, but are you looking at other ways of bringing in private capital in order to increase the capital spending power of the Welsh Government?

Peter Black: Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod   bod Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn defnyddio cynlluniau menter cyllid preifat, er enghraifft, ar gyfer adeiladu meddygfeydd, ac mae'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi dweud ei bod yn hamddenol am y defnydd o gyfleusterau preifat yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn enwedig mewn orthopedeg. Yr wyf yn meddwl bod esgus fod hwn yn ymwneud â’r sector cyhoeddus yn unig heb fewnbwn gan y sector preifat ychydig yn ffuantus. Yr wyf am eich holi am y gwaith arloesi yr ydych yn ei ddilyn i godi arian cyfalaf. Yn amlwg, nid yw PFI yn opsiwn, ond a ydych yn edrych ar ffyrdd eraill o ddod i mewn â chyfalaf preifat er mwyn cynyddu grym gwario cyfalaf Llywodraeth Cymru?

Jane Hutt: Peter Black is right to press me on exploring all possible means of levering more capital into public sector infrastructure investment. That is what I intend to do. I have mentioned the Welsh Housing Partnership, which is a partnership with the Principality building society, and for which £3 million has been levered in from the Welsh Government. It is a collaborative group of housing associations and registered social landlords that have come together to create a vehicle to enable them to access that funding. That will result in 150 houses being built, and affordable housing is crucial. That is one example of something practical that we are already doing. We will explore all innovative forms of investment in public infrastructure, to maximise the impact of our drastically reduced capital budget, and of course the private sector will play a key part in that. One need only look at the new waste infrastructure initiative: it is covered by the private sector and will be charged to local authorities over time.

Jane Hutt: Mae Peter Black yn iawn i fy mhwyso o ran archwilio pob dull posibl o ddenu mwy o gyfalaf i fuddsoddi yn seilwaith y sector cyhoeddus. Dyna'r hyn yr wyf yn bwriadu ei wneud. Yr wyf wedi sôn am Bartneriaeth Tai Cymru, sy'n bartneriaeth gyda chymdeithas adeiladu'r Principality, ac y mae £3 miliwn wedi'i ysgogi wrth Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n grŵp cydweithredol o gymdeithasau tai a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig sydd wedi dod at ei gilydd i greu cyfrwng er mwyn eu galluogi i gael gafael ar y cyllid hwnnw. Bydd hynny’n arwain at adeiladu 150 o dai, ac y mae tai fforddiadwy yn hanfodol. Dyna un enghraifft o rywbeth ymarferol yr ydym eisoes yn ei wneud. Byddwn yn archwilio'r holl ffurfiau arloesol o fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith cyhoeddus i gynyddu effaith ein cyllideb gyfalaf sydd wedi lleihau'n sylweddol, ac wrth gwrs bydd y sector preifat yn chwarae rhan allweddol yn hynny. Nid oes ond angen edrych ar y fenter seilwaith gwastraff newydd: mae'n cael ei gwmpasu gan y sector preifat a bydd yn cael ei godi ar awdurdodau lleol dros gyfnod o amser.

Peter Black: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I want to press you further on the issue of housing. What has happened to the Welsh housing investment trust, which was being pursued by the last Government? What progress has been made on that? When can we expect an announcement on whether that will in fact happen?

Peter Black: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Yr wyf am bwyso arnoch ymhellach ar y mater o dai. Beth sydd wedi digwydd i'r ymddiriedolaeth buddsoddi tai Cymru, a oedd yn cael ei ddilyn gan y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf? Pa gynnydd sydd wedi'i wneud ar hynny? Pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl cyhoeddiad ynghylch a fydd hynny’n digwydd mewn gwirionedd?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Housing Partnership has come out of our considerations of the feasibility of the Welsh housing investment trust. Indeed, we have moved on from that to develop the Welsh Housing Partnership because there were obstacles and barriers to the creation of a full-blown Welsh housing investment trust. Huw Lewis and I met the organisations that are taking it forward, and Nick Bennett of Community Housing Cymru brought along the expertise that that organisation has gained from its financial services forum. Its officials were meeting the housing corporation capital finance trust that day to make progress on the Welsh bond for social housing. Therefore, we are progressing further than you might imagine, and I will make sure that you receive feedback on developments.

Jane Hutt: Mae Partneriaeth Tai Cymru wedi dod allan o'n ystyriaethau o ddichonoldeb ymddiriedolaeth buddsoddi tai Cymru. Yn wir, yr ydym wedi symud ymlaen o hynny i ddatblygu Partneriaeth Tai Cymru am fod rhwystrau o ran creu ymddiriedolaeth fuddsoddi tai Cymru llawn. Cyfarfu Huw Lewis a minnau y sefydliadau sydd yn ei gymryd ymlaen, a daeth Nick Bennett o Gartrefi Cymunedol Cymru â’r arbenigedd y mae’r sefydliad hwnnw wedi’i ennill o'i fforwm gwasanaethau ariannol. Roedd ei swyddogion yn cwrdd ag ymddiriedolaeth cyllid cyfalaf y gorfforaeth dai y diwrnod hwnnw i wneud cynnydd ar fond Cymru ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol. Felly, yr ydym yn symud ymlaen ymhellach nag y gallwch ddychmygu, a byddaf yn gwneud yn siŵr eich bod yn cael adborth ar ddatblygiadau.

Jenny Rathbone: Young people are very grateful for the Welsh Government’s action to protect them from the tripling of tuition fees. I would like to look at the impact on universities in Wales of the reduction in the teaching grant from the UK Government and the impact that that has on their ability to offer scholarships, both to encourage students who are exceptionally bright to go to Welsh rather than English universities, and also to help those from disadvantaged backgrounds who may need scholarships to enable them to attend. Can you tell us whether the Welsh Government has any ideas on how we can support the creation of scholarships in Welsh universities?

Jenny Rathbone: Mae pobl ifanc yn ddiolchgar iawn am gamau Llywodraeth Cymru i'w hamddiffyn rhag ffioedd dysgu sy’n treblu. Hoffwn edrych ar effaith y gostyngiad yn y grant addysgu gan Lywodraeth y DU ar brifysgolion yng Nghymru a'r effaith a gaiff hynny ar eu gallu i gynnig ysgoloriaethau, i annog myfyrwyr, sydd yn eithriadol o ddisglair, i fynd i brifysgolion yng Nghymru yn hytrach na phrifysgolion yn Lloegr, a hefyd i helpu’r rhai o gefndiroedd difreintiedig a allai fod angen ysgoloriaethau arnynt er mwyn eu galluogi i fynychu. A allwch ddweud wrthym a oes gan Lywodraeth Cymru unrhyw syniadau ar sut y gallwn gefnogi'r gwaith o greu ysgoloriaethau ym mhrifysgolion Cymru?

Jane Hutt: I can assure the Member for Cardiff Central that the Welsh Government’s policy on supporting students and the higher education sector takes a whole-sector approach. We took account of the income that was likely to be available to higher education institutions when we undertook detailed modelling during our policy development. Indeed, the undertakings that the higher education institutions had to give us in terms of the fee and grant arrangements had to include recognition of these particular needs.

Jane Hutt: Gallaf sicrhau'r Aelod dros Ganol Caerdydd fod polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar gefnogi myfyrwyr a’r sector addysg uwch yn defnyddio ymagwedd sector gyfan. Rydym yn ystyried yr incwm a oedd yn debygol o fod ar gael i sefydliadau addysg uwch pan gynhaliwyd modelu manwl yn ystod ein datblygiad polisi. Yn wir, yr oedd yn rhaid i’r ymrwymiadau yr oedd y sefydliadau addysg uwch yn gorfod rhoi i ni o ran y trefniadau ffioedd a grant gynnwys cydnabyddiaeth o’r anghenion penodol hyn.

Simon Thomas: Hoffwn dynnu eich sylw at adroddiad diweddar yr OECD, sy’n dangos bod myfyrwyr yng Nghymru a Lloegr ar hyn o bryd yn talu dwywaith cymaint tuag at eu haddysg uwch â myfyrwyr mewn bron unrhyw wlad ddatblygedig arall. Bydd y sefyllfa hon yn gwaethygu yn Lloegr wrth i ffioedd dysgu godi i ryw £9,000—a dylem ganmol Llywodraeth Cymru am amddiffyn myfyrwyr drwy’r fargen a darwyd rhwng ei phlaid hi a Phlaid Cymru yn y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf. Weinidog, a wnewch edrych ar yr adroddiad hwnnw a’r feirniadaeth ynddo ynglŷn â’r effaith bosibl ar yr economi o ganlyniad i ddyledion mawr i fyfyrwyr? Gofynnaf i chi eto ddatgan yn glir y bydd y polisi presennol yn parhau drwy gydol y Llywodraeth hon.

Simon Thomas: I would like to draw to your attention the recent OECD report, which shows that students in Wales and England currently pay twice as much towards their education as students in almost any other developed country. This situation will worsen in England as teaching fees rise to some £9,000—we should praise the Welsh Government for defending students under the deal struck between the Minister’s party and Plaid Cymru in the previous Government. Minister, will you look at that report and the criticism therein with regard to the possible effect that large student debts will have on the economy? I ask again that you clearly state that the current policy will continue for the entirety of this Government.

Jane Hutt: I welcome your continued support for the policy, and I believe that that is the case in terms of your question.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn croesawu eich cefnogaeth barhaus am y polisi, a chredaf fod hynny'n wir o ran eich cwestiwn.

Sandy Mewies: Minister, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats is elsewhere today,  busy stating that it is right for her party to be propping up the Conservative-led coalition and that they will not support our Welsh budget if it does not give more money to schools. Do you, like me, find this a strange paradox—not supporting moneys for the educational maintenance allowances and tuition fees for Welsh students, but supporting the cuts in England? Or, like me, do you feel that this is just another example of the Liberal Democrats facing two ways, or sitting on the fence, whichever phrase you choose?

Sandy Mewies: Weinidog, mae arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn rhywle arall heddiw, yn brysur yn datgan ei fod yn iawn i’w phlaid i ddal y glymblaid a arweinir gan y Ceidwadwyr i fyny ac na fyddant yn cefnogi ein cyllideb Gymreig os nad yw'n rhoi mwy o arian i ysgolion. A ydych chi, fel fi, yn gweld hyn yn baradocs—peidio â chefnogi arian ar gyfer y lwfansau cynhaliaeth addysgol a ffioedd dysgu i fyfyrwyr Cymru, ond cefnogi'r toriadau yn Lloegr? Neu, fel fi, a ydych yn teimlo bod hyn ond yn enghraifft arall o'r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn wynebu dwy ffordd, neu’n eistedd ar y ffens, pa un bynnag ymadrodd yr ydych yn ei ddewis?

Jane Hutt: I hope that we can see a different approach emerging from the Welsh Liberal Democrats in terms of support for these policies. I know that education lies at the heart of their objectives.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn gobeithio y gallwn weld dull gwahanol yn dod i'r amlwg gan Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru o ran cefnogaeth i’r polisïau hyn. Gwn fod addysg wrth wraidd eu hamcanion.

2.00 p.m.

Mick Antoniw: Minister, the measure of a civilised society is the tolerance that it is able to show for minorities and others who choose a different lifestyle. Does the Minister agree that the planning Bill that is to be proposed by the Welsh Government will offer an opportunity to repair some of the damage that was done in the 1980s when the legal obligations to provide sites were removed? Our policy should reflect the particular needs of the children of those families in relation to services and education facilities.

Mick Antoniw: Weinidog, y mesur o gymdeithas waraidd yw’r goddefgarwch y mae’n gallu dangos i leiafrifoedd a phobl eraill sy’n dewis ffordd wahanol o fyw. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno y bydd y Bil cynllunio y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei gynnig yn gyfle i atgyweirio rhywfaint o’r difrod a wnaethpwyd yn y 1980au pan ddiddymwyd y rhwymedigaethau cyfreithiol i ddarparu safleoedd? Dylai ein polisi adlewyrchu anghenion penodol plant y teuluoedd hynny mewn perthynas â gwasanaethau a chyfleusterau addysg.

Jane Hutt: Mick Antoniw raises another important point that relates to the support that we are giving to Save the Children for its educational work with Gypsy and Traveller children and young people. I met its representatives in August, along with a young person from Pembrokeshire who has benefited from the education grant available to Save the Children. She is about to start in employment as a teaching assistant in a school in Pembrokeshire. I urge Members to look at the ‘Travelling to a Better Future’ framework for action because it covers all issues regarding our strong support for Gypsies and Travellers, which is also expressed across this Chamber.

Jane Hutt: Mae Mick Antoniw yn codi pwynt pwysig arall sy’n ymwneud â’r cymorth a roddwn i Achub y Plant ar gyfer ei waith addysgol gyda phlant a phobl ifanc o gymunedau Sipsiwn a Theithwyr. Cefais gyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr o’r mudiad ym mis Awst, ynghyd â pherson ifanc o Sir Benfro sydd wedi elwa ar y grant addysg sydd ar gael i Achub y Plant. Mae hi ar fin dechrau mewn cyflogaeth fel cynorthwyydd addysgu mewn ysgol yn Sir Benfro. Anogaf yr Aelodau i edrych ar y fframwaith gweithredu ‘Teithio at Ddyfodol Gwell’, oherwydd mae’n cwmpasu’r holl faterion ynghylch ein cefnogaeth gref ar gyfer Sipsiwn a Theithwyr, a fynegir hefyd ar draws y Siambr hon.

Jocelyn Davies: Problems are more likely to arise in unauthorised sites. Your current strategy asks local authorities to provide licensed sites where there is a need. Are there any local authorities that are not providing appropriate provision and, as a result of that neglect, are encouraging unlicensed sites to be set up and are overburdening the councils that take their responsibilities seriously? Will you commit to continuing to fund this strategy?

Jocelyn Davies: Mae problemau yn fwy tebygol o godi ar safleoedd sydd heb eu hawdurdodi. Mae eich strategaeth gyfredol yn gofyn i awdurdodau lleol ddarparu safleoedd trwyddedig lle bo angen. A oes unrhyw awdurdodau lleol nad ydynt yn darparu darpariaeth briodol, ac, o ganlyniad i’r esgeulustod hwnnw, yn annog safleoedd heb eu trwyddedu i gael eu sefydlu ac yn rhoi gormod o bwysau ar y cynghorau hynny sy’n cymryd eu cyfrifoldebau o ddifrif? A allwch ymrwymo i barhau i ariannu’r strategaeth hon?

Jane Hutt: The commitment that we made in this budget—a pressed budget—to increase the refurbishment grant from 75 per cent to 100 per cent is an indication of our support for Welsh local authorities. The situation in Wales is that there are a number of unauthorised encampments that do not have planning permission. We are seeking to work closely with local authorities to support them in carrying out their statutory duties.

Jane Hutt: Mae’r ymrwymiad a wnaethom yn y gyllideb hon—cyllideb wasgedig—i gynyddu’r grant adnewyddu o 75 y cant i 100 y cant yn arwydd o’n cefnogaeth i awdurdodau lleol Cymru. Y sefyllfa yng Nghymru yw bod nifer o wersylloedd heb eu hawdurdodi nad oes ganddynt ganiatâd cynllunio. Rydym yn ceisio gweithio’n agos gydag awdurdodau lleol i’w cynorthwyo i gyflawni eu dyletswyddau statudol.

Julie Morgan: Will the Minister assure me that the disgraceful situation that has arisen in Dale Farm in Basildon—where old people and children are being made homeless because there is an inadequate provision of sites in the area—will not happen in Wales? Does she think that enough legal sites are provided in Wales for the Gypsy and Traveller population?

Julie Morgan: A all y Gweinidog roi sicrwydd na fydd y sefyllfa warthus sydd wedi codi yn Dale Farm yn Basildon—lle mae pobl hŷn a phlant yn cael eu gwneud yn ddigartref oherwydd darpariaeth annigonol o safleoedd yn yr ardal honno—yn digwydd yng Nghymru? A yw’n credu y darperir digon o safleoedd cyfreithiol yng Nghymru ar gyfer y boblogaeth Sipsiwn a Theithwyr?

Jane Hutt: The challenge of ensuring that local authorities are undertaking their responsibilities will come to the fore when we publish the framework for action. They must assess the housing needs of Gypsies and Travellers of all generations. All generations have been affected by the situation at Dale Farm and we know how important that full assessment is. I trust that we will move forward, in partnership with local authorities, to ensure that this does not happen in Wales. In fact, we are at the forefront of addressing this.

Jane Hutt: Bydd yr her o sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau yn dod i’r amlwg pan gyhoeddwn y fframwaith gweithredu. Rhaid iddynt asesu anghenion o ran tai Sipsiwn a Theithwyr o bob cenhedlaeth. Mae’r sefyllfa yn Dale Farm wedi effeithio ar bob cenhedlaeth a gwyddom pa mor bwysig yw asesiad llawn o hynny. Hyderaf y byddwn yn symud ymlaen, mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol, i sicrhau na fydd hyn yn digwydd yng Nghymru. Mewn gwirionedd, yr ydym ar flaen y gad o ran ymdrin â hyn.

Leanne Wood: Minister, unemployment is rising fast throughout Wales and the market has failed to provide jobs in some areas since the end of heavy industry. Therefore, the chances of the private sector filling the gaps left by the public sector in terms of jobs are very slim indeed. Do you accept that the market has failed to provide jobs and that it will continue to fail communities in Wales? If so, do you agree that the Government should intervene where the market has failed? Further to that, will you support calls for the devolution of the budget for Remploy factories so that supported employment, which is vital for some people in our communities, can continue to be provided, not only in South Wales Central but throughout the whole of Wales?

Leanne Wood: Weinidog, mae diweithdra yn cynyddu’n gyflym ledled Cymru ac mae’r farchnad wedi methu â darparu swyddi mewn rhai ardaloedd ers diwedd diwydiant trwm. Felly, mae’r tebygolrwydd y bydd y sector preifat yn llenwi bylchau a adawyd gan y sector cyhoeddus o ran swyddi yn fach iawn. A ydych yn derbyn bod y farchnad wedi methu â darparu swyddi ac y bydd yn parhau i fethu cymunedau yng Nghymru? Os felly, a ydych yn cytuno y dylai’r Llywodraeth ymyrryd lle mae’r farchnad wedi methu? At hynny, a fyddwch yn cefnogi galwadau i ddatganoli’r gyllideb ar gyfer ffatrïoedd Remploy fel bod cyflogaeth a gynorthwyir, sy’n hollbwysig i rai pobl yn ein cymunedau, yn parhau i gael ei ddarparu, nid yn unig yng Nghanol De Cymru ond ledled Cymru gyfan?

Jane Hutt: Leanne Wood raises an important point about our responsibilities for intervening, which we take very seriously. You will recall that, in the former One Wales Government, we set up an economic summit, bringing together the private sector, trade unions and local government to address the recession and lead Wales out of recession. That was led by the former Deputy First Minister. We intervened by developing ProAct as well as Adapt, the scheme that helps public sector workers who have experienced job loss or redundancy. The key point with regard to responsibility for Remploy is something that we need to look at in relation to influencing the prospects for that very important part of supported employment.

Jane Hutt: Mae Leanne Wood yn codi pwynt pwysig am ein cyfrifoldebau dros ymyrryd, yr ydym yn eu cymryd o ddifrif. Byddwch yn cofio, yn y Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un blaenorol, inni sefydlu uwchgynhadledd economaidd, gan ddwyn ynghyd y sector preifat, undebau llafur a llywodraeth leol i fynd i’r afael â’r dirwasgiad ac arwain Cymru allan o’r dirwasgiad hwnnw. Arweiniwyd hynny gan y cyn Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog. Yr ydym wedi ymyrryd drwy ddatblygu ProAct yn ogystal ag Adapt, y cynllun sy’n helpu gweithwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus sydd wedi colli eu swyddi neu sydd wedi’u diswyddo. Mae’r pwynt allweddol o ran y cyfrifoldeb dros Remploy yn rhywbeth y mae angen inni edrych arno mewn perthynas â dylanwadu ar y rhagolygon ar gyfer y rhan bwysig iawn honno o gyflogaeth a gynorthwyir.

Eluned Parrott: Being new and naïve, I am sure that it is a coincidence that the surprise announcement on enterprise zones this week followed hot on the heels of the announcement that the Jaguar engine factory would not be locating here. Obviously, I am grateful that there will be two enterprise zones in my region, one of which is, of course, in the Minister’s own constituency. However, I would be grateful to know more about the financing. What discussions has the Minister had about the finance necessary for establishing these enterprise zones, particularly with regard to business rates and other tax breaks?

Eluned Parrott: Oherwydd fy mod yn newydd ac yn naïf, yr wyf yn siŵr ei bod yn gyd-ddigwyddiad bod y cyhoeddiad annisgwyl ar barthau menter yr wythnos hon wedi dilyn mor gyflym ar ôl y cyhoeddiad na fyddai ffatri injans Jaguar yn cael ei lleoli yma. Yn amlwg, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar y bydd yna ddau barth menter yn fy rhanbarth i, ac mae un ohonynt, wrth gwrs, yn etholaeth y Gweinidog ei hun. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ddiolchgar i gael gwybod mwy am y cyllid sydd ar gael. Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael ynghylch y cyllid sy’n angenrheidiol ar gyfer sefydlu y parthau menter hyn, yn enwedig o ran ardrethi busnes a gostyngiadau eraill?

Jane Hutt: I am glad of the opportunity to welcome Eluned Parrott, who lives in my constituency, and her regional constituency. I am glad that she has welcomed the announcement about St Athan, as have Members across the Chamber, because it is vital that we provide that opportunity, particularly for aerospace development in south-east Wales. I responded on this issue during business questions yesterday and mentioned the letter that went out to Members about the detailed work that needs to be done. With my support as Minister for Finance, the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science is taking this forward to clarify the position with regard to financial levers and opportunities.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i groesawu Eluned Parrott, sy’n byw yn fy etholaeth, ac yn ei hetholaeth ranbarthol. Yr wyf yn falch ei bod wedi croesawu’r cyhoeddiad ynghylch Sain Tathan, fel Aelodau ar draws y Siambr, oherwydd mae’n hollbwysig inni ddarparu’r cyfle hwnnw, yn arbennig ar gyfer datblygiadau awyrofod yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru. Ymatebais ar y mater hwn yn ystod y cwestiynau busnes ddoe, gan sôn am y llythyr a anfonwyd at Aelodau am y gwaith manwl sydd angen ei wneud. Gyda fy nghefnogaeth fel y Gweinidog Cyllid, mae’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth yn dwyn y mater hwn ymlaen i egluro’r sefyllfa o ran ysgogiadau a chyfleoedd ariannol.

Bethan Jenkins: A fedrwch roi gwybodaeth i ni ynglŷn â’r uned gyflawni? A ydyw’r uned honno’n monitro cyllideb y Llywodraeth a pha rôl y bydd yn ei chwarae yn y dyfodol?

Bethan Jenkins: Can you give us any information about the delivery unit? Does that unit monitor the Government’s budget and what role will it play in future?

Jane Hutt: That is a question for the First Minister and I am sure that you are all looking forward to his statement on the programme for government next week.

Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n gwestiwn i’r Prif Weinidog ac yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod i gyd yn edrych ymlaen at ei ddatganiad ar y rhaglen lywodraethu yr wythnos nesaf.

Jane Hutt: This is an area in which we work hand in hand. The whole Cabinet works together on this to support the Minister for business and enterprise in particular. This is something that, I am sure, you will see very clearly as a result of announcements that have been made this week.

Jane Hutt: Mae hwn yn faes lle’r ydym yn gweithio law yn llaw. Mae’r Cabinet cyfan yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ar hyn i gefnogi’r Gweinidog busnes a menter yn benodol. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth, mae’n siŵr, y byddwch yn ei weld yn glir iawn o ganlyniad i’r cyhoeddiadau a wnaethpwyd yr wythnos hon.

Nick Ramsay: The question that was asked by Eluned Parrott from the Liberal Democrats regarding enterprise zones is extremely pertinent at this point. The Welsh Conservatives certainly welcome the recent, if belated, announcement that Wales will be following suit in establishing the five new enterprise zones over the next five years. Will you give some detail on that? There is scant detail at the moment about how these enterprise zones will be established. Will you confirm the consequential uplift that the Welsh Government is expecting from the UK Government for the enterprise zones? I think that it is around £10 million. Will you also confirm whether—depending on the extent of your plans for enterprise zones—you intend to provide any additional funding for the Minister for business to make the enterprise zones even more successful?

Nick Ramsay: Mae’r cwestiwn a ofynnwyd gan Eluned Parrott o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ynghylch parthau menter yn hynod o berthnasol ar hyn o bryd. Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn sicr yn croesawu’r cyhoeddiad diweddar, er ei fod yn hwyr, y bydd Cymru yn dilyn yr esiampl o sefydlu’r pum parth menter newydd dros y pum mlynedd nesaf. A wnewch roi rhywfaint o fanylion ar hynny? Manylion prin yn unig sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd ynghylch sut y bydd y parthau menter hyn yn cael eu sefydlu. A wnewch gadarnhau’r cynnydd canlyniadol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddisgwyl gan Lywodraeth y DU ar gyfer y parthau menter? Credaf ei bod tua £10 miliwn. A wnewch hefyd gadarnhau—yn dibynnu ar raddfa eich cynlluniau ar gyfer parthau menter—a ydych yn bwriadu darparu unrhyw gyllid ychwanegol i’r Gweinidog busnes allu gwneud y parthau menter yn fwy llwyddiannus fyth?

Jane Hutt: The Minister for business and enterprise will be answering questions later, but I am happy to repeat the points that I have made about backing the Minister at this time of economic challenge to Wales. Indeed, as evidenced by the IMF and leading economic commentators over the last few weeks, we have a key role to play. We will do everything and use every lever that we can to support the Minister for business in her task as part of that challenge.

Jane Hutt: Bydd y Gweinidog busnes a menter yn ateb cwestiynau yn ddiweddarach, ond yr wyf yn ddigon bodlon ailadrodd y pwyntiau a wneuthum am gefnogi’r Gweinidog yn ystod y cyfnod hwn o her economaidd i Gymru. Yn wir, fel y dangoswyd gan yr IMF a sylwebyddion economaidd blaenllaw dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, mae gennym rôl allweddol i’w chwarae. Byddwn yn gwneud popeth ac yn defnyddio pob dull posibl y gallwn i gefnogi’r Gweinidog busnes yn ei thasg fel rhan o’r her honno.

Jane Hutt: Certainly, this is something that I want to discuss with the Minister with responsibility for transport. I am looking at these issues as part of my ministerial responsibility for equality and I want to ensure that transport adheres to anti-discrimination legislation.

Jane Hutt: Yn sicr, mae hyn yn rhywbeth yr hoffwn ei drafod gyda’r Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros drafnidiaeth. Yr wyf yn edrych ar y materion hyn fel rhan o’m cyfrifoldeb gweinidogol dros gydraddoldeb ac yr wyf am sicrhau bod trafnidiaeth yn cadw at y gyfraith gwahaniaethu.

2.15 p.m.

Sandy Mewies: Minister, you may recall the Wales vision strategy that was endorsed by the Government in the previous Assembly and which I launched last year. It is work that is linked with the World Health Organization and led by the Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru. It is an exemplar in partnership working and covers the whole gamut and strategy, including the issues mentioned by Rhodri Glyn. Would you agree that it is important that we continue to support the implementation of the action plan in the future?

Sandy Mewies: Weinidog, efallai y byddwch yn cofio strategaeth weledigaeth Cymru a gafodd ei chymeradwyo gan y Llywodraeth yn y Cynulliad blaenorol, ac a lansiais y llynedd. Mae’n waith sy’n cael ei gysylltu â Mudiad Iechyd y Byd ac sy’n cael ei arwain gan Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol y Deillion Cymru. Mae’n esiampl o waith partneriaeth ac mae’n ymdrin â phob agwedd a’r strategaeth gyfan, gan gynnwys y materion a grybwyllwyd gan Rhodri Glyn. A fyddech yn cytuno ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn parhau i gefnogi’r gwaith o gyflwyno’r cynllun gweithredu yn y dyfodol?

Jane Hutt: The point that Sandy Mewies made is important, because, as a Welsh Government, we were pioneering at the start with regard to the development of this strategy. I intend to ensure that equality is at the forefront of all budgets. I also welcome the publication of the ‘Beyond Vision’ report, which is a joint project between RNIB and Neath Port Talbot College. I am sure that Members have seen the report and I know that the Member for Neath is aware of the project.

Jane Hutt: Mae’r pwynt a wnaeth Sandy Mewies yn bwysig, oherwydd, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, roeddem yn arloesol ar y dechrau o ran datblygu’r strategaeth hon. Rwy’n bwriadu sicrhau bod cydraddoldeb yn cael blaenoriaeth ym mhob cyllideb. Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu cyhoeddi’r adroddiad ‘Mwy na Golwg’, sef prosiect ar y cyd rhwng RNIB a Choleg Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Rwyf yn siŵr bod yr Aelodau wedi gweld yr adroddiad a gwn fod Aelod Castell-nedd yn ymwybodol o’r prosiect.

Mohammad Asghar: Blind and partially sighted people in America can plug their earphones into one in four cash machines and listen to a voice that guides them through to the cash transaction. RNIB is trying to launch a campaign to bring similar facilities here. Minister, will you commit to support this campaign, given your portfolio responsibility linked to equality of opportunity? There are no such machines in this part of world. Also, Minister, will you join me in writing to the banks to urge them to consider the need of blind and partially sighted customers to be served properly here?

Mohammad Asghar: Gall pobl ddall a rhannol ddall yn America gysylltu eu clustffonau ag un o bob pedwar peiriant arian parod a gwrando ar lais sy’n eu tywys drwy’r trafodiad arian parod. Mae RNIB yn ceisio lansio ymgyrch i ddod â chyfleusterau tebyg yma. Weinidog, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i gefnogi’r ymgyrch hon, o ystyried eich cyfrifoldeb portffolio sy’n gysylltiedig â chyfle cyfartal? Nid oes unrhyw beiriannau o’r fath i’w cael yn y rhan hon o’r byd. Hefyd, Weinidog, a ymunwch â mi drwy ysgrifennu at y banciau i bwyso arnynt i ystyried yr angen i gwsmeriaid dall a rhannol ddall gael ei gwasanaethu’n iawn yma?

Jane Hutt: That is something that we, across this Chamber, could sign up to, given the limited power that we may have over those banks, unfortunately. However, we have a key social responsibility and an ethical point to raise with them.

Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y gallem ni, ar draws y Siambr, ymrwymo iddo, o ystyried y grym cyfyngedig y gallai fod gennym dros banciau hynny, yn anffodus. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym gyfrifoldeb cymdeithasol allweddol a phwynt moesegol i’w godi gyda hwy.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth
Questions to the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science

Labordai Gwyddonaieth

Science Laboratories

1. Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch cau labordai gwyddoniaeth yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0027(BET)

1. Rhodri Glyn Thomas: What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding the closure of science laboratories in Wales. OAQ(4)0027(BET)

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science (Edwina Hart): I have had no direct discussions with the UK Government.

Y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth (Edwina Hart): Nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau uniongyrchol â Llywodraeth y DU.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Os felly, Weinidog, yr wyf yn eich annog i gael y trafodaethau hynny, oherwydd y mae’r labordai hyn yn eithriadol o bwysig. Yr ydym oll yn ymwybodol o’r problemau a all godi, ac yr ydym wedi cael profiadau anffodus o hynny yng Nghymru gydag iechyd anifeiliaid, er enghraifft. Mae’r labordai hyn yn bwysig yn y maes hwnnw. Bydd y labordai yng Nghaerfyrddin ac yn Aberystwyth yn cau, sy’n golygu na fydd gwasanaeth i’w gael yng Nghymru. Felly, bydd yn rhaid mynd dros y ffin i gael y gwasanaeth hwnnw a bydd oedi, wrth gwrs, yn sgîl hynny wrth i bobl ddisgwyl am ymateb. Byddwn yn falch o roi rhagor o wybodaeth am hyn i’r Gweinidog os yw’n dymuno derbyn hynny.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: If that is the case, Minister, I would urge you to have those discussions, because these laboratories are extremely important. We are all aware of the problems that can arise, and we have, unfortunately, had cases of such problems in Wales with animal health, for example. These laboratories are important in that context. The laboratories in Carmarthen and Aberystwyth will close, which will mean that no provision will be available in Wales. Therefore, the service will only be available across the border, which will lead to delays, of course, as people wait for a response. I would be happy to provide the Minister with more information if she so wished.

Edwina Hart: I thank Rhodri Glyn Thomas for raising this matter with me. I have made inquiries with my officials, and, during the purdah period, work started on what they were doing with regard to the budget period in April. Officials dealt with those matters at the time, but in light of your comments today, my department and I will now deal with these issues.

Edwina Hart: Diolchaf i Rhodri Glyn Thomas am godi’r mater hwn gyda mi. Rwyf wedi gwneud ymholiadau gyda fy swyddogion, ac, yn ystod y cyfnod purdah, dechreuodd gwaith ar yr hyn maent yn ei wneud o ran cyfnod y gyllideb ym mis Ebrill. Ymdriniodd swyddogion â’r materion hynny ar y pryd, ond yng ngoleuni eich sylwadau heddiw, bydd fy adran a minnau nawr yn ymdrin â’r materion hyn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: The relationship with the UK Government, in particular with regard to enterprise and business, is critically important. Will you outline how your department engages with departments in Westminster? Also, will you indicate the number of one-to-one meetings that you have had with the equivalent Minister in Westminster?

Andrew RT Davies: Mae’r berthynas â Llywodraeth y DU, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â menter a busnes, yn hollbwysig. A wnewch chi amlinellu sut y mae eich adran yn ymgysylltu ag adrannau yn San Steffan? Hefyd, a wnewch chi nodi nifer y cyfarfodydd unigol a gawsoch gyda’r Gweinidog cyfatebol yn San Steffan?

Edwina Hart: Obviously, I would have to consult my diaries about details of meetings. Lots of things are done at an official level. We have good relationships at official levels in the main. Currently, we are working particularly hard with the Ministry of Defence about St Athan’s position.

Edwina Hart: Yn amlwg, byddai’n rhaid i mi ymgynghori â fy nyddiaduron am fanylion y cyfarfodydd. Mae llawer o bethau yn cael eu gwneud ar lefel swyddogol. Mae gennym berthynas dda ar lefelau swyddogol ar y cyfan. Ar hyn o bryd, rydym yn gweithio’n arbennig o galed gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ynghylch sefyllfa Sain Tathan.

Band Eang

Broadband

2. Gwyn R. Price: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fynediad i fand eang yn Islwyn. OAQ(4)0031(BET)

2. Gwyn R. Price: Will the Minister make a statement on access to broadband in Islwyn. OAQ(4)0031(BET)

Edwina Hart: Thank you for that question. High-speed broadband access will be available in parts of Islwyn by the end of December. Any areas of Islwyn that will not be addressed by the market will benefit from our next generation broadband for Wales project. The broadband support scheme provides an immediate remedy for anyone who does not have sufficient broadband.

Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am y cwestiwn. Bydd mynediad at fand eang cyflym ar gael mewn rhannau o Islwyn erbyn diwedd mis Rhagfyr. Bydd unrhyw ardaloedd yn Islwyn na fydd yn cael gwasanaeth gan y farchnad yn elwa ar ein prosiect band eang y genhedlaeth nesaf i Gymru. Mae’r cynllun cymorth band eang yn cynnig datrysiad ar unwaith i unrhyw un nad oes ganddo ddarpariaeth band eang digonol.

Gwyn R. Price: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I read your recent statement regarding the Welsh Government’s commitment to deliver broadband to all households and businesses by 2015 through the next generation broadband for Wales. Minister, when you are looking at priorities, will you give an assurance that areas such as Islwyn, which has been so damaged in the past by the ignorance of Governments of a different shade to our own, will be fully considered for early roll out?

Gwyn R. Price: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Darllenais eich datganiad diweddar am ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i ddarparu band eang i bob cartref a busnes erbyn 2015 drwy brosiect band eang y genhedlaeth nesaf i Gymru. Weinidog, pan fyddwch yn edrych ar flaenoriaethau, a wnewch chi sicrhau y bydd ardaloedd fel Islwyn, sydd wedi dioddef cymaint yn y gorffennol oherwydd anwybodaeth Llywodraethau o liw gwahanol i’n un ni, yn cael eu hystyried yn llawn ar gyfer  cyflwyniad cynnar y gwasanaeth?

Edwina Hart: The roll-out schedule is currently being negotiated with bidders, and I will publish this following the contract award. The roll out will include all areas that the market has failed to address. The Blackwood exchange will be upgraded to receive BT superfast broadband service by the end of this year.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r amserlen gyflwyno yn cael ei drafod ar hyn o bryd gyda chynigwyr, a byddaf yn cyhoeddi hwn yn dilyn y dyfarniad contract. Bydd y broses gyflwyno yn gynnwys yr holl ardaloedd y mae’r farchnad wedi methu mynd i’r afael â nhw. Bydd cyfnewidfa’r Coed Duon yn cael ei uwchraddio i dderbyn gwasanaeth band eang cyflym iawn BT erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon.

William Graham: Minister, you will know that many constituents in Islwyn and the Caerphilly borough welcomed the decision by Virgin Media to trial ultrafast broadband delivered over existing electricity poles in Crumlin, starting from last August. However, despite the encouraging nature of this particular scheme, businesses in Caerphilly highlight that slow broadband still exists. Bearing in mind the importance that you have attached to fast and reliable broadband for businesses, will you agree to examine the effectiveness of the scheme, and work with broadband providers and local authorities to examine the potential of enabling similar schemes to be rolled out in areas where broadband is not currently available, or is exceedingly slow?

William Graham: Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod bod llawer o etholwyr yn Islwyn a bwrdeistref Caerffili wedi croesawu penderfyniad Virgin Media i dreialu band eang tra chyflym drwy bolion trydan presennol yng Nghrymlyn, gan ddechrau fis Awst diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, er bod y cynllun penodol hwn yn galonogol, mae busnesau yng Nghaerffili yn amlygu’r ffaith bod band eang araf yn dal i fodoli. O gofio pa mor bwysig yr ydych yn ystyried band eang cyflym a dibynadwy i fusnesau, a gytunwch i archwilio effeithiolrwydd y cynllun, a gweithio gyda darparwyr band eang ac awdurdodau lleol i archwilio’r potensial i alluogi cyflwyno cynlluniau tebyg mewn ardaloedd lle nad yw band eang ar gael ar hyn o bryd, neu lle mae’n eithriadol o araf?

Edwina Hart: I will be pleased to take up the issues raised by the Member on this. I will ask officials to look at these issues and report back, not only to William Graham but to all Members.

Edwina Hart: Byddaf yn falch o fynd i’r afael â’r materion a godwyd gan yr Aelod ar hyn. Byddaf yn gofyn i swyddogion edrych ar y materion hyn ac adrodd yn ôl, nid i William Graham yn unig, ond i’r holl Aelodau.

Jenny Rathbone: Could the Minister shed any light on why the Pen-y-lan not spot, which is only four or five miles from the Millennium Stadium, has not been—

Jenny Rathbone: A allai’r Gweinidog daflu unrhyw oleuni ar pam nad yw’r man gwan ym Mhen-y-lan, sydd ond bedwar neu bum milltir o Stadiwm y Mileniwm, wedi—

The Presiding Officer: Order. We are talking about Islwyn, not Pen-y-lan.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Rydym yn siarad am Islwyn, nid Pen-y-lan.

Jenny Rathbone: I am talking about a not spot in another place.

Jenny Rathbone: Rwyf yn siarad am fan gwan mewn lle arall.

The Presiding Officer: The question was about broadband in Islwyn.

Y Llywydd: Roedd y cwestiwn am fand eang yn Islwyn.

Twf Economaidd

Economic Growth

3. Angela Burns: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cynnal yn ddiweddar gyda Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy ynghylch effaith cynllunio ar dwf economaidd. OAQ(4)0038(BET)

3. Angela Burns: What recent discussions has the Minister held with the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development regarding the impact of planning on economic growth. OAQ(4)0038(BET)

Edwina Hart: I discuss a range of issues that impact upon business with my Cabinet colleagues, including planning. An effective and balanced approach to planning is critical to our overall approach to supporting better economic conditions. This is reflected in the written statement on planning for sustainable economic renewal, published in June.

Edwina Hart: Rwyf yn trafod ystod o faterion sy’n effeithio ar fusnes gyda fy nghydweithwyr yn y Cabinet, gan gynnwys cynllunio. Mae dull gweithredu effeithiol a chytbwys ar gynllunio yn hanfodol i’n dull cyffredinol o gefnogi gwell amodau economaidd. Caiff hyn ei adlewyrchu yn y datganiad ysgrifenedig ar gynllunio ar gyfer adnewyddu economaidd cynaliadwy, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mehefin.

Angela Burns: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Many councils are currently putting together their local deposit plans, or have almost finished doing so, and they are relying upon the identification of large sites for house building that will only appeal to large builders, who are usually based outside this country. This policy shuts out the smaller local developer and those who undertake self-build. Opening more opportunities for small-scale developments would not only help to meet our housing need but would also provide more jobs on a far more local basis. It would also indirectly benefit other people, such as those who supply building materials. Smaller plots are also far more likely to be developed at the moment. Will the Minister take that forward, as it has a real economic benefit to Wales overall? Will you take that forward with the Minister responsible for planning to see how he might change the local deposit plans to support this?

Angela Burns: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Ar hyn o bryd, mae llawer o gynghorau yn llunio eu cynlluniau blaendal lleol, neu bron wedi gorffen gwneud hynny, ac maent yn dibynnu ar nodi safleoedd mawr ar gyfer adeiladu tai a fydd yn apelio i adeiladwyr mawr, sydd fel arfer wedi’u lleoli y tu allan i’r wlad hon. Mae’r polisi hwn yn eithrio’r datblygwr lleol llai a’r rheiny sy’n adeiladu eu tai eu hunain. Byddai agor mwy o gyfleoedd ar gyfer datblygiadau ar raddfa fach nid yn unig yn helpu i fodloni ein anghenion tai, ond byddai hefyd yn darparu mwy o swyddi ar sail llawer mwy lleol. Byddai hefyd, yn anuniongyrchol, o fudd i bobl eraill, fel y rhai sy’n cyflenwi deunyddiau adeiladu. Hefyd, mae lleiniau llai yn llawer mwy tebygol o gael eu datblygu ar hyn o bryd. A wnaiff y Gweinidog fwrw ymlaen â hynny, gan y byddai Cymru’n elwa wirioneddol yn economaidd ohono? A wnewch chi fwrw ymlaen â hynny gyda’r Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am gynllunio i weld sut y gallai newid y cynlluniau blaendal lleol i gefnogi hyn?

Edwina Hart: These points have been made to me during my visits across Wales, and they are points that I have discussed with the Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage about the keenness to develop smaller sites. It is also something that I know that John Griffiths is aware of, as we have had detailed discussions between the three of us about housing being an economic driver, and also about the need for affordable homes, particularly in rural areas and other places. We need to look at the context of planning and how we keep local companies engaged in the development of those projects.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r pwyntiau hyn wedi rhoi i mi yn ystod fy ymweliadau ledled Cymru, ac maent yn bwyntiau yr wyf wedi’u trafod gyda’r Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth am yr awydd i ddatblygu safleoedd llai. Mae hefyd yn rhywbeth y gwn fod John Griffiths yn ymwybodol ohono, gan fod y tri ohonom wedi cael trafodaethau manwl ar y ffaith fod tai yn sbardun economaidd, a hefyd am yr angen am dai fforddiadwy, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig a mannau eraill. Mae angen inni edrych ar y cyd-destun cynllunio a sut yr ydym yn cadw cwmnïau lleol sy’n ymwneud â datblygu prosiectau hynny.

Kenneth Skates: Minister, I express my support for the National Trust’s campaign against the UK Government’s plans to subvert the English planning system into a purely economic tool, with scant regard for the green belt or the wider countryside. We need a more balanced approach in Wales between protecting the countryside and boosting growth in the construction sector. I fear that there could be an exodus of house builders from Wales if there is a free-for-all approach to planning adopted in England. In your discussions with Ministers at a UK level, will you ensure that you place a premium on the need to protect our countryside and construction sector?

Kenneth Skates: Weinidog, yr wyf yn mynegi fy nghefnogaeth i ymgyrch yr Ymddiriedolaeth Genedlaethol yn erbyn cynlluniau Llywodraeth y DU i wyrdroi’r system gynllunio yn Lloegr yn offeryn economaidd yn unig, gyda fawr ddim ystyriaeth i’r llain las neu gefn gwlad yn ehangach. Mae arnom angen dull mwy cytbwys yng Nghymru wrth ddiogelu cefn gwlad a hybu twf yn y sector adeiladu. Rwyf yn ofni y gallai llawer iawn o adeiladwyr tai droi eu cefnau ar Gymru os caiff dull cynllunio agored i bawb ei fabwysiadu yn Lloegr. Yn eich trafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion ar lefel y DU, a wnewch chi sicrhau eich bod yn pwysleisio’r angen i ddiogelu ein cefn gwlad a’r sector adeiladu?

Edwina Hart: I take my responsibilities, as does the Government, regarding environmental sustainability seriously. It is clear that economic prosperity and growth do not have to be sacrificed for the environment; we know that there is economic potential in a greener society. My colleague John Griffiths will bring forward a planning Bill that will give Members an opportunity to discuss their views on these particular issues in detail.

Edwina Hart: Rwyf i, fel y mae’r Llywodraeth, yn cymryd fy nghyfrifoldebau o ran cynaliadwyedd amgylcheddol o ddifrif. Mae’n amlwg nad oes rhaid aberthu ffyniant a thwf economaidd er mwyn yr amgylchedd; rydym yn gwybod bod yna botensial economaidd mewn cymdeithas wyrddach. Bydd fy nghydweithiwr John Griffiths yn cyflwyno Bil cynllunio a fydd yn rhoi cyfle i Aelodau drafod, mewn manylder, eu barn ar y materion penodol.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Yn dilyn ei hymweliad llwyddiannus â chanolfan dadgomisynu Trawsfynydd yn ddiweddar, a yw’r Gweinidog wedi cael cyfle i ystyried agweddau cynllunio ac economaidd dyfodol y safle hwnnw, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni ei datganiad ddoe ynglŷn â safleoedd yn ymwneud â datblygiad ynni o safbwynt parthau menter?

Lord Elis-Thomas: Following her successful visit to the Trawsfynydd decommissioning centre recently, has the Minister had an opportunity to consider the planning and economic aspects of the future of that site, particularly in light of her statement yesterday about energy development sites from the point of view of enterprise zones?

Edwina Hart: I was particularly impressed when I visited the site with you, Lord Elis-Thomas, as the local Member, to see the commitment of individuals in that area to try to bring in jobs. They were particularly concerned that there would be a role for the national park in terms of planning. As it was a brownfield site, they were concerned that it should continue to be used. There were all sorts of issues such as education, housing, health and the local economy. I have had further discussions with Gwynedd Council about the possibility of looking at that as a specialist enterprise zone, and those discussions continue.

Edwina Hart: Cefais fy mhlesio’n fawr gyda’r ymweliad â’r safle gyda chi, yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas, fel yr Aelod lleol, i weld ymrwymiad unigolion yn yr ardal honno i geisio dod â swyddi i’r ardal. Roeddent yn arbennig o bryderus y byddai gan y parc cenedlaethol rôl yn nhermau cynllunio. Gan ei fod yn safle tir llwyd, roeddynt yn poeni y dylid parhau i’w ddefnyddio. Roedd pob math o faterion yn codi, fel addysg, tai, iechyd a’r economi leol. Rwyf wedi cael trafodaethau pellach gyda Chyngor Gwynedd am y posibilrwydd o edrych ar hynny fel ardal fenter arbenigol, ac mae’r trafodaethau hynny’n parhau.

Eluned Parrott: Wales’s success in attracting inward investment in the past has been eclipsed in recent times by our failure to retain companies here. At the Welsh Affairs Committee meeting last week, we heard Admiral Group plc make a strong case for targeting 20 Admirals rather than one LG. Will the Minister follow that advice?

Eluned Parrott: Mae llwyddiant Cymru wrth ddenu buddsoddiad o’r tu allan yn y gorffennol wedi cael ei drechu yn ddiweddar gan ein methiant i gadw cwmnïau yma. Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig yr wythnos diwethaf, clywsom Admiral Group plc yn dadlau’n gryf dros dargedu 20 Admiral yn hytrach nag un LG. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddilyn y cyngor hwnnw?

Edwina Hart: I am currently looking at all issues on inward investment and how we prioritise it in my department. Wales must give a clear message that we are open for business in terms of inward investment. We must look at our departmental structures, how we use trade delegations, how we make contact with companies and how we deal with these issues. Work is currently going on in my department, and I am sure that I will report to you in due course. I think that that will answer some of the comments made in another place by another committee.

Edwina Hart: Rwyf ar hyn o bryd yn edrych ar bob agwedd ar fewnfuddsoddi a sut yr ydym yn ei flaenoriaethu ei yn fy adran. Rhaid i Gymru roi neges glir ein bod yn agored i fusnes o ran mewnfuddsoddi. Rhaid i ni edrych ar ein strwythurau adrannol, sut rydym yn defnyddio dirprwyaethau masnach, sut yr ydym yn cysylltu â chwmnïau a sut yr ydym yn delio â’r materion hyn. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo yn fy adran, ac rwyf yn siŵr y byddaf yn adrodd i chi maes o law. Rwyf yn meddwl y bydd hynny’n ateb rhai o’r sylwadau a wnaed rhywle arall gan bwyllgor arall.

Eluned Parrott: That is very helpful. One other thing that we heard in the committee was that there was a perception among businesses that constant changes in policy direction were unsettling for the business sector and a disincentive to work in Wales. We recognise that it takes time for you to be able to build on the work that the One Wales Government put together, but when can we expect to see signs of that delivery plan in action?

Eluned Parrott: Mae hynny’n ddefnyddiol iawn. Un peth arall a glywsom yn y pwyllgor oedd bod yna ganfyddiad ymhlith busnesau bod newidiadau cyson yn y cyfeiriad polisi yn ansefydlogi’r sector busnes ac yn  anghymhelliad i weithio yng Nghymru. Rydym yn cydnabod ei fod yn cymryd amser i chi allu adeiladu ar y gwaith y dechreuodd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un, ond pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl gweld arwyddion fod cynllun cyflenwi ar waith?

Edwina Hart: When I have been out and about in Wales, I have had tremendous support from business about our direction of travel as a Government. We have had tremendous support for our news on enterprise zones. I have heard praise for the training packages that are available for industry. Business recognises that we are in difficult times. When we set down previous policy, the economy was not the same as it is now—the economy changes from day to day. We must remember that we are a small nation on the western edge of Europe with few levers. If the UK Government, the Greek Government and the United States Government cannot get things right quickly, I think that I deserve some time to ensure that our policies are fit for purpose.

Edwina Hart: Wrth fynd o gwmpas Cymru, rwyf wedi cael cefnogaeth wych gan fusnesau i’n gwaith fel Llywodraeth. Mae cefnogaeth anhygoel i’n newyddion ar barthau menter. Rwyf wedi clywed canmoliaeth am y pecynnau hyfforddi sydd ar gael ar gyfer diwydiant. Mae’r sector fusnes yn cydnabod ein bod mewn cyfnod anodd. Pan amlinellwyd polisi gennym yn y gorffennol, nid oedd yr economi yr un fath ag y mae nawr—mae’r economi’n newid o ddydd i ddydd. Rhaid inni gofio mai cenedl fechan ar gyrion gorllewinol Ewrop ydym, gyda dim ond ychydig o ysgogiadau. Os na all Llywodraeth y DU, Llywodraeth Gwlad Groeg na Llywodraeth y Unol Daleithiau gael pethau’n iawn yn gyflym, rwy’n credu fy mod yn haeddu rhywfaint o amser i sicrhau bod ein polisïau yn addas i’r diben.

Gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru

Welsh Manufacturing

4. Mark Isherwood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu’r gefnogaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei rhoi i weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0025(BET)

4. Mark Isherwood: Will the Minister outline what support the Welsh Government is giving to Welsh manufacturing. OAQ(4)0025(BET)

Edwina Hart: We are continuing to support manufacturing companies in Wales through the Welsh Government’s key sectors approach.

Edwina Hart: Rydym yn parhau i gefnogi cwmnïau gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru drwy ddull sectorau allweddol Llywodraeth Cymru.

Mark Isherwood: Your announcement on enterprise zones included Deeside as an advanced manufacturing zone, and you are aware of and have been engaged with the submission from Flintshire County Council containing its proposals for the enterprise zone. What dialogue have you had or will you and your officials have with the council to marry the proposals that you have in mind with those that it has submitted to you in its worked-up report?

Mark Isherwood: Mae eich cyhoeddiad ar ardaloedd menter yn cynnwys Glannau Dyfrdwy fel ardal gweithgynhyrchu uwch, ac rydych yn ymwybodol o ac wedi bod yn ymwneud â chyflwyniad gan Gyngor Sir y Fflint sy’n cynnwys ei gynigion ar gyfer y parth menter. Pa ddeialog yr ydych wedi’i gael neu y byddwch chi a’ch swyddogion yn ei gael gyda’r cyngor i gyfuno’r cynigion sydd gennych mewn golwg gyda’r rhai y mae wedi ei gyflwyno i chi yn ei adroddiad?

Edwina Hart: Thank you for that thoughtful question. I very much welcomed Councillor Matt Wright’s warm welcome for what we did:

Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am y cwestiwn meddylgar. Croesewais yn fawr groeso cynnes y Cynghorydd Matt Wright am yr hyn a wnaethom:

‘It’s fantastic news—not just for Flintshire, but for north east Wales.’

Mae’n newyddion gwych—nid ar gyfer Sir y Fflint yn unig, ond ar gyfer gogledd ddwyrain Cymru.

We have taken a thoughtful approach and we will discuss issues with our partners. Hence, there may be a time lapse on the detail, because we want to ensure that we have got it right with our partners in terms of what we can do in that area.

Rydym wedi cymryd ymagwedd ystyriol a byddwn yn trafod y materion gyda’n partneriaid. Felly, efallai y bydd treigl amser ar y manylion, oherwydd yr ydym yn awyddus i sicrhau ein bod wedi gwneud pethau’n iawn gyda’n partneriaid o ran yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud yn y maes hwnnw.

Julie James: I welcome the Government’s sectoral approach to boosting Welsh manufacturing and our economy with the establishment of the five enterprise zones in the first phase. As you know, Minister, Swansea University in my constituency is a centre of excellence in biotechnology and nanotechnology. Those sectors are predicted to be significant global growth industries and important for the future of our manufacturing and knowledge economy. Will you consider establishing an enterprise zone in Swansea, focusing on biotechnology, nanotechnology and advanced engineering sectors during your deliberations on enterprise zones in Wales?

Julie James: Croesawaf ymagwedd sectoraidd y Llywodraeth i roi hwb i weithgynhyrchu Cymru a’n heconomi drwy sefydlu’r pum ardal menter yn y cyfnod cyntaf. Fel y gwyddoch, Weinidog, mae Prifysgol Abertawe yn fy etholaeth i yn ganolfan ragoriaeth mewn biotechnoleg a nanotechnoleg. Rhagwelir y bydd y diwydiannau hynny’n ddiwydiannau twf byd-eang arwyddocaol ac yn bwysig ar gyfer dyfodol ein economi gweithgynhyrchu a’n heconomi wybodaeth. A wnewch chi ystyried sefydlu parth fenter yn Abertawe, fydd yn canolbwyntio ar fiotechnoleg, nanotechnoleg a sectorau peirianneg uwch, yn ystod eich trafodaethau ar ardaloedd menter yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart: I will, of course, consider any approaches that are made to me about further enterprise zones from any of our partners.

Edwina Hart: Byddaf, wrth gwrs, yn ystyried unrhyw awgrymiadau a gynigir i mi gan unrhyw un o’n partneriaid ar barthau menter pellach.

2.30 p.m.

Alun Ffred Jones: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ymweld â Pharc Menai a Connect Hygiene yn etholaeth Arfon yn ddiweddar. A yw’n derbyn bod ffatrïoedd bach fel Connect Hygiene yn hollbwysig i gynnal cyflogaeth mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ac a all roi sicrwydd y bydd swyddogion ei hadran yn gweithio gyda’r cwmni i geisio sicrhau ei ddyfodol?

Alun Ffred Jones: I thank the Minister for visiting Parc Menai and Connect Hygiene in the Arfon constituency recently. Does she accept that small plants such as Connect Hygiene are crucial to maintaining employment in rural areas, and can she give an assurance that officials in her department will work with the company to try to ensure its future?

Edwina Hart: During my visit, I was very impressed by the company and by the dedication of employees and the management who are keeping employment going within that particular area. My officials will be engaging with the company concerned to see what help and assistance we can give in this difficult period.

Edwina Hart: Yn ystod fy ymweliad, cafodd y cwmni ac ymroddiad gweithwyr a rheolwyr sydd yn cadw cyflogaeth i fynd o fewn yr ardal benodol honno gryn argraff arnaf. Bydd fy swyddogion yn ymgysylltu gyda’r cwmni dan sylw i weld pa help a chymorth y gallwn roi yn y cyfnod anodd hwn.

David Rees: I also welcome the news about the enterprise zones and, like my colleague from Swansea West, I also hope to have discussions with you about enterprise zones further west than St Athan. However, in the meantime, can you give me some information about what support will be provided to manufacturing in areas outside of the enterprise zones?

David Rees: Croesawaf hefyd y newyddion ynglŷn â’r parthau menter ac, fel fy nghyd-Aelod o Orllewin Abertawe, gobeithiaf hefyd cael trafodaethau gyda chi am barthau menter ymhellach i’r gorllewin na Sain Tathan. Fodd bynnag, yn y cyfamser, a allwch chi roi gwybodaeth imi ynghylch pa gymorth a roddir i weithgynhyrchu mewn ardaloedd y tu allan i parthau menter?

Edwina Hart: We very much have to be fleet of foot these days. We might have a policy agenda and rules and regulations written down, but, as we look at what is happening in the economy, we will sometimes have to consider what companies require on an individual basis in terms of support and be a lot more flexible. That is what I am currently looking at with my new director in the department. 

Edwina Hart: Mae’n rhaid inni fod yn chwim iawn ein troed y dyddiau hyn. Efallai fod gennym agenda bolisi a rheolau a rheoliadau wedi’u hysgrifennu i lawr, ond, wrth inni edrych ar beth sy’n digwydd yn yr economi, weithiau, bydd yn rhaid inni ystyried beth sydd angen ar gwmnïau unigol o ran cymorth a bod yn llawer mwy hyblyg. Dyna beth yr wyf ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried gyda ‘m cyfarwyddwr newydd yn yr adran.

Peter Black: I very much welcome your assertion to Julie James that you are open to further discussion about enterprise zones and that you will look at the Swansea area. Given the importance of the bio-engineering and life sciences work at Swansea University, why was Swansea not considered for the first tranche of enterprise zones, and why do we not have any enterprise zones in the west of Wales?

Peter Black: Croesawaf yn fawr iawn eich honiad i Julie James eich bod yn agored i drafodaeth bellach am barthau menter ac y byddwch yn edrych ar ardal Abertawe. O gofio pwysigrwydd y gwaith bio-peirianneg a gwyddorau bywyd ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, pam na ystyriwyd Abertawe ar gyfer y gyfran gyntaf o barthau menter, a pham nad oes gennym unrhyw barthau menter yng ngorllewin Cymru?

Edwina Hart: As I have indicated, this was a first-stage announcement. We have already had considerable discussion and approaches from other areas. I already had a view about such places as St Athan—it is self-evident that it is an excellent site—but the door is open to all of this.

Edwina Hart: Fel y nodais, cyhoeddiad cam cyntaf oedd hwn. Yr ydym eisoes wedi cael cryn drafodaeth a chynigion o ardaloedd eraill. Yr oedd eisoes gennyf farn am leoedd megis Sain Tathan—mae’n amlwg ei bod yn safle rhagorol—ond mae’r drws ar agor i hyn i gyd.

Edwina Hart: I am more than happy to accede to your request for a meeting and I will discuss the issue with my colleague, the Minister with responsibility for transport.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon i gytuno â’ch cais am gyfarfod a byddaf yn trafod y mater gyda fy nghyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros drafnidiaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol bod nifer o gyrchfannau eithriadol o bwysig o ran twristiaeth yn etholaeth Dwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr, ac yn arbennig yn nyffryn Tywi, a bod y cyrchfannau hyn yn denu degau o filoedd o ymwelwyr bob blwyddyn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno eu bod yn eithriadol o bwysig ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwch yn cytuno bod potensial i ddatblygu cyrchfannau eraill yn nyffryn Tywi. Fodd bynnag, mae’r heol sy’n mynd drwy Landeilo yn achosi problemau mewn perthynas â thrafnidiaeth a llygredd i’r awyr. A wnewch chi drafod pwysigrwydd yr heol arbennig honno â’r Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros drafnidiaeth a gofyn pryd y gellir datblygu’r ffordd osgoi ar gyfer Llandeilo?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Minister, you will be aware that there are a number of exceptionally important tourism destinations in the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr constituency, particularly in the Towy valley, and that these destinations attract tens of thousands of visitors each year. I am sure that you would agree that they are exceptionally important and I hope that you would agree that there is the potential to develop other destinations in the Towy valley. However, the road going through Llandeilo causes problems in relation to traffic and air pollution. Will you discuss the importance of that road with the Minister with responsibility for transport and ask when the Llandeilo bypass could be developed?

Edwina Hart: I am not aware that I have received any correspondence, as the Minister with responsibility for tourism, that relates to the points raised, but my ministerial colleague is in the Chamber and I am sure that he will pick up those points.

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi derbyn unrhyw ohebiaeth, fel y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am dwristiaeth, sy’n berthnasol i’r pwyntiau a godwyd, ond mae fy nghyd-Weinidog yn y Siambr ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn codi’r pwyntiau hynny.

Edwina Hart: I am the Minister for the whole of Wales and I intend to attract as much investment as I can, whether in the east, the west, the north, the south, or mid Wales. There are two enterprise zones designated for north Wales—one in Ynys Môn and one in Flintshire. That is good news for north Wales. On your comments about ProAct and ReAct, I have never had an adverse comment from any company that I have met about any of the assistance that we have given in those areas as an Assembly Government. It is a project that we can be proud of. It was made in Wales, delivered in Wales, and it has protected jobs and companies in Wales.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf i’n Weinidog ar gyfer Cymru gyfan a bwriadaf i ddenu cymaint o fuddsoddiad ag sy’n bosibl, boed yn y dwyrain, y gorllewin, y gogledd, y de, neu ganolbarth Cymru. Dynodwyd dau barth menter ar gyfer gogledd Cymru—un yn Ynys Môn ac un yn Sir y Fflint. Mae hynny’n newyddion da i ogledd Cymru. O ran eich sylwadau ynglŷn â ProAct a ReAct, nid wyf erioed wedi cael sylw anffafriol gan unrhyw gwmni y cyfarfûm ynghylch unrhyw gymorth a roddwyd gennym yn yr ardaloedd hynny fel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae’n brosiect y gallwn fod yn falch ohono. Gwnaed yng Nghymru, darparwyd yng Nghymru, a diogelwyd swyddi a chwmnïau yng Nghymru.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ddoe mewn ateb i gwestiwn gennyf y bydd ymdrechion i ddenu buddsoddiad i’r safle gwaith alwminiwn blaenorol yn Nolgarrog yn parhau. A allech amlinellu beth fydd natur yr ymdrechion hynny? Pa syniadau sydd gennych i sicrhau bod y safle hwn, sydd yn strategol allweddol i Ddyffryn Conwy, yn cael ei adfywio?

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: The First Minister said yesterday in response to a question from me that efforts to attract investment into the former aluminium works in Dolgarrog would continue. Could you outline what the nature of those efforts will be? What ideas do you have to ensure that this key, strategic site for Dyffryn Conwy is regenerated?

Edwina Hart: We are in a very difficult environment. We continue to market the site and try to look for suitable industries. Some sites are attractive to certain industries because of their remoteness and I have asked officials to concentrate on industries that might want to go to different locations further west, and to look at the kind of business that we could attract. We are developing policy in that area and, hopefully, that will bear fruit in the next few years.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydym mewn amgylchedd anodd iawn. Rydym yn parhau i farchnata’r safle ac yn ceisio edrych am ddiwydiannau addas. Mae rhai safleoedd yn ddeniadol i rai diwydiannau oherwydd eu bod mor anghysbell, ac rwyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion i ganolbwyntio ar y diwydiannau hynny sydd efallai am fynd i wahanol leoliadau ymhellach i’r gorllewin, ac i edrych ar y math o fusnes y gallem eu denu. Rydym yn datblygu polisi yn y maes hwnnw, a gobeithio y bydd hynny’n dwyn ffrwyth yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf.

The Presiding Officer: Question 8, OAQ(4)0032(BET), is transferred for written answer by the Minister for Education and Skills.

Y Llywydd: Mae cwestiwn 8, OAQ(4)0032(BET), wedi’i drosglwyddo ar gyfer ateb ysgrifenedig gan y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau.

2.45 p.m.

I believe that your Government is looking at tying the enterprise-zone policy in to a bid to attract the new UK green investment bank to Cardiff. If we were to lose that as well, it would be another blow for us. Could you therefore update us on where the Welsh Government currently is with that bid and what discussions you have had with the UK Government to ensure that Cardiff has the best possible chance to bring that UK green investment bank to Wales?

Yr wyf yn credu bod eich Llywodraeth yn ystyried cysylltu’r polisi parth menter gydag ymgais i ddenu banc buddsoddi gwyrdd newydd y DU i Gaerdydd. If we were to lose that as well, it would be another blow for us.Pe baem yn colli hynny hefyd, byddai’n ergyd arall i ni.Could you therefore update us on where the Welsh Government currently is with that bid and what discussions you have had with the UK Government to ensure that Cardiff has the best possible chance to bring that UK green investment bank to Wales? A allwch felly roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni ynghylch cynnydd Llywodraeth Cymru gyda’r cais hynny, a pha drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau bod gan Gaerdydd y cyfle gorau posibl i ddod â banc buddsoddi gwyrdd y DU i Gymru?

Edwina Hart: It is important to recognise that it would be positive news if a proper bank was created on the back of this, and we have, of course, made our necessary comments to the UK Government. I had hoped for a meeting with Vince Cable and invited him to come to Wales to meet me to discuss these issues, but, unfortunately, due to his diary commitments, he could not come. I have therefore subsequently written to him to suggest that I could visit him to discuss these opportunities. Therefore, what you have said is vital. However, I think that I read a tweet by Alun Cairns, in which he said that anything that we did on enterprise zones would not have affected the decision on Jaguar Land Rover. I will just leave you with his comments.

Edwina Hart: Mae’n bwysig cydnabod y byddai’n newyddion cadarnhaol pe bai banc priodol yn cael ei greu o ganlyniad i hyn, ac yr ydym, wrth gwrs, wedi rhoi ein sylwadau angenrheidiol i Lywodraeth y DU.I had hoped for a meeting with Vince Cable and invited him to come to Wales to meet me to discuss these issues, but, unfortunately, due to his diary commitments, he could not come. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio am gyfarfod gyda Vince Cable, ac yr wyf wedi ei wahodd i Gymru i gwrdd â mi i drafod y materion hyn, ond, yn anffodus, oherwydd ymrwymiadau yn ei ddyddiadur, nid oedd yn gallu dod.I have therefore subsequently written to him to suggest that I could visit him to discuss these opportunities. Yn dilyn hynny, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu ato i awgrymu y gallwn ymweld ag ef i drafod y cyfleoedd hyn.Therefore, what you have said is vital. Felly, mae’r hyn yr ydych wedi’i ddweud yn hanfodol.However, I think that I read a tweet by Alun Cairns, in which he said that anything that we did on enterprise zones would not have affected the decision on Jaguar Land Rover. Fodd bynnag, credaf fy mod wedi darllen trydar gan Alun Cairns a ddywedodd na fyddai unrhyw weithred gennym ar barthau menter wedi effeithio ar y benderfyniad ynghylch Jaguar Land Rover.I will just leave you with his comments. Gadawaf ei sylwadau gyda chi.

Edwina Hart: We have a very good product in the broadband that we can offer in many areas in Wales; it is superior to some aspects of broadband across the board. We must recognise that broadband is an infrastructure issue—and there are hard and soft infrastructure issues. I know that I should not say this in front of techies, but accessing broadband should be as easy as switching on a light, should it not? 

Edwina Hart: Mae gennym gynnyrch da iawn o ran y band eang y gallwn ei gynnig mewn nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru; mae’n rhagori ar rai agweddau band eang ar draws y bwrdd. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod bod band eang yn fater seilwaith, ac mae yna faterion seilwaith caled a meddal. Rwy’n gwybod na ddylwn ddweud hyn o flaen ‘techies’, ond oni ddylai fod mor rwydd i gael mynediad at fand eang ag ydyw i droi’r golau ymlaen?

‘much of the existing economic base of Wales and future projections of job growth and wealth creation lie outside the six key sectors’.

llawer o sail economaidd bresennol Cymru a rhagolygon twf swyddi a chreu cyfoeth yn y dyfodol y tu hwnt i’r chwe sector allweddol’.

Therefore, I would be grateful for some clarity on whether you will pursue the sector approach or the approach that is outlined in your manifesto.

Felly, byddwn yn ddiolchgar am rywfaint o eglurder ynghylch: a fyddwch yn parhau gyda’r dull sector neu’r dull sy’n cael ei hamlinellu yn eich maniffesto?

Edwina Hart: I stand by the Labour Party’s manifesto.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn glynu at faniffesto’r Blaid Lafur.

Cynnig NNDM4801 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4801 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects:

1. Nick Ramsay (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes yn lle Andrew RT Davies (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig); a

1. Nick Ramsay (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Enterprise and Business Committee in place of Andrew R.T. Davies (Welsh Conservatives); and

2. Nick Ramsay yn Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes yn lle Andrew RT Davies (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

2. Nick Ramsay as Chair of the Enterprise and Business Committee in place of Andrew R.T. Davies (Welsh Conservatives).

Cynnig NNDM4802 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4802 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol Suzy Davies (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol yn lle Antoinette Sandbach (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Suzy Davies (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in place of Antoinette Sandbach (Welsh Conservatives).

Cynnig NNDM4803 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4803 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol Paul Davies (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid yn lle Nick Ramsay (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Paul Davies (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Finance Committee in place of Nick Ramsay (Welsh Conservatives).

Cynnig NNDM4804 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4804 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol William Graham (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes yn lle Nick Ramsay (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects William Graham (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Business Committee in place of Nick Ramsay (Welsh Conservatives).

Cynnig NNDM4805 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4805 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol Janet Finch-Saunders (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol yn lle William Graham (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Janet Finch-Saunders (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in place of William Graham (Welsh Conservatives).

Cynnig NNDM4806 Rosemary Butler

Motion NNDM4806 Rosemary Butler

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.14, yn ethol William Graham (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol yn lle Janet Finch-Saunders (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig).

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects William Graham (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Health and Social Care Committee in place of Janet Finch-Saunders (Welsh Conservatives).

Peter Black: I move the motions.

Peter Black: Cynigiaf y cynigion.

The Presiding Officer: Unless there are any objections, I propose that the votes on the motions are grouped. I see that there are no objections. The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? I see that there are no objections. The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 12.36.

Y Llywydd: Os nad oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad, cynigiaf fod y pleidleisiau ar y cynigion yn cael eu grwpio. Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad. Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynigion. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad. Felly, derbyniwyd y cynigion yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynigion.
Motions agreed.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives Debate

Hygyrchedd Trafnidiaeth Gyhoeddus
The Accessibility of Public Transport

The Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Peter Black.

Cynnig NDM4798 William Graham

Motion NDM4798 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi â phryder bod llai na hanner gorsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru yn hollol hygyrch i bobl anabl;

1. Notes with concern that less than half of Wales’ railway stations are fully accessible to disabled people;

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

2. Calls for the Welsh Government to:

a) Wneud trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn fwy hygyrch, drwy ddarparu gwybodaeth glyweledol ac ymestyn y Cerdyn Bws Cydymaith;

a) Make public transport more accessible, through the provision of audio-visual information and extension of the Companion Bus Pass;

b) Hybu ymwybyddiaeth a hyfforddiant staff mewn perthynas â gofynion teithwyr anabl.

b).Promote staff awareness and training in disabled passenger requirements.

Byron Davies: I move the motion.

Byron Davies: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

It gives me great pleasure to lead our first opposition debate this term. The motion before you is not a political point-scoring exercise; it highlights the very real problems that affect the lives of many Welsh women and men on a day-to-day basis.

Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf arwain ein dadl gyntaf fel gwrthblaid y tymor hwn. Nid yw’r cynnig ger eich bron chi yn ymarfer i sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol; mae’n tynnu sylw at y problemau go iawn sy’n effeithio ar fywydau llawer o fenywod a dynion yng Nghymru o ddydd i ddydd.

I am sure that we are all aware of the work undertaken by the Committee on Equality of Opportunity on these issues in the previous Assembly. Two of its inquiries are particularly relevant to this debate. The first was the inquiry into the impact of Welsh Government policy on the accessibility of transport services for disabled people in Wales, the report for which was published in February 2011. The second was the inquiry into the accessibility of railway stations, the report for which was published in October 2010. Both reports make reference to the value of providing specific training to transport providers to help them to meet the needs of disabled passengers.

Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith a wnaed gan y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal ar y materion hyn yn y Cynulliad blaenorol. Mae dau o’i ymchwiliadau yn arbennig o berthnasol i’r ddadl hon. Y cyntaf oedd yr ymchwiliad i effaith polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar hygyrchedd gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth ar gyfer pobl anabl yng Nghymru; cyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad hynny ym mis Chwefror 2011. Yr ail oedd yr ymchwiliad i hygyrchedd gorsafoedd rheilffordd a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Hydref 2010. Mae’r ddau adroddiad yn cyfeirio at werth o ddarparu hyfforddiant penodol i gludo darparwyr i’w helpu i ddiwallu anghenion teithwyr anabl.

3.00 p.m.

Both of these independent reports evidence these problems and lend some weight to our calls in this motion. However, I do not wish to give the impression that all is bad in this field. I want to pay tribute to organisations such as Newport Transport. It is one of the few bus operators in the UK to specifically tailor its certificate of professional competence driver training to include comprehensive modules on understanding the needs of disabled passengers. As part of this training, bus drivers experience first-hand what it is like to have a disability. This is achieved through participation in a series of role-play scenarios, where drivers are asked to wear goggles and ear defenders—to experience what it is like to have a visual or hearing impairment—and to use a wheelchair and walking aid to get on and off a bus. This has made a dramatic difference to attitude and perception and the assistance that people with disabilities in the Newport area receive. This is very commendable.

Mae’r ddau adroddiad annibynnol hyn yn dangos problemau ac yn atgyfnerthu’n galwadau yn y cynnig hwn i raddau. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf am roi’r argraff fod popeth yn ddrwg yn y maes hwn. Hoffwn roi teyrnged i sefydliadau megis Newport Transport. Mae’n un o’r ychydig gwmnïau bysiau yn y DU i deilwra’i dystysgrif cymhwysedd proffesiynol ar hyfforddiant gyrru yn benodol er mwyn cynnwys modiwlau cynhwysfawr ar ddeall anghenion teithwyr anabl. Fel rhan o’r hyfforddiant hwn, caiff gyrwyr brofiad uniongyrchol o sut beth yw bod ag anabledd. Cyflawnir hyn trwy gymryd rhan mewn cyfres o sefyllfaoedd chwarae rôl, lle gofynnir i yrwyr wisgo gogls a chlustffonau—i brofi sut beth yw e i fod â nam ar y llygaid neu’r clyw—ac i ddefnyddio cadair olwyn a ffrâm gerdded wrth fynd ar ac oddi ar fws. Mae hyn wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth dramatig i agwedd a chanfyddiad pobl, a’r cymorth y mae pobl ag anableddau yn ardal Casnewydd yn ei gael. Mae hyn i’w gymeradwyo’n fawr.

This excellent level of training is sadly missing in relation to many other modes of public transport across Wales. We urge the Welsh Government to consider action. We believe that audio-visual announcements should be phased in to all public transport. New contracts and procurement methods should require best practice to be followed. On this side of the Chamber, we want bus travellers who require help from more than one companion to be able to apply for additional passes. Furthermore, the Welsh Government should be proactive in clarifying companion bus pass guidance and ensuring that all users and providers know the criteria. In my view, these actions represent the bare minimum that is required.

Yn anffodus, mae’r lefel hyfforddiant ardderchog yma ar goll yn nifer o ddulliau cludiant cyhoeddus eraill ar draws Cymru. Rydym yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i ystyried camau gweithredu. Credwn y dylid cyflwyno cyhoeddiadau clyweledol yn raddol i ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus drwyddi draw. Dylai contractau newydd a dulliau caffael ofyn am ymrwymiad i arfer gorau. Ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr, rydym eisiau i deithwyr bws sydd angen cymorth gan fwy nag un cydymaith allu gwneud cais am docynnau ychwanegol. Ar ben hynny, dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn rhagweithiol wrth egluro canllawiau tocyn bws cydymaith a sicrhau bod pob defnyddiwr a darparwr yn gwybod y meini prawf. Yn fy marn i, mae’r camau gweithredu hyn yn cynrychioli’r isafswm y dylid gofyn amdano.

Another important issue that is sometimes forgotten is that, while implementing these policies, we need to properly engage with disability groups. This is vital in ensuring that their needs are met by new schemes and policies. Very often, this engagement does not happen. Swansea High Street station development is a good example of good practice and effective use of consultation duties under the Equality Act 2010. Disability and access groups were meaningfully consulted. This is an exemplar and I hope that it is used as best practice.

Mater pwysig arall sydd weithiau’n mynd yn angof yw bod angen i ni ymgysylltu’n briodol â grwpiau anabledd wrth gyflwyno’r polisïau hyn. Mae hyn yn hanfodol er mwyn sicrhau bod cynlluniau a pholisïau newydd yn diwallu eu hanghenion. Yn aml iawn, nid yw’r ymgysylltiad hyn yn digwydd. Mae datblygiad gorsaf Stryd Fawr Abertawe yn enghraifft dda o arfer da a defnydd effeithiol o ddyletswyddau ymgynghori o dan Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb 2010. Ymgynghorwyd yn ystyrlon â grwpiau anabledd a mynediad. Mae hyn yn enghraifft dda a gobeithiaf y caiff ei defnyddio fel arfer gorau.

Before concluding, I want to touch on one shocking statistic that fewer than half of Wales’s railway stations are fully accessible to disabled people. A further shocking statistic is that just 16 per cent of stations in Wales have part access to platforms for wheelchair users. Some 36 per cent have no access whatsoever. In addition, concerns were raised about the lack of publicity for schemes such as the disabled persons’ railcard. To compound this problem, a number of local authorities in Wales have cut their half-price travel concessions for elderly and disabled rail users. Carmarthenshire County Council, for example, recently ended an agreement with Arriva Trains Wales in a bid to save £60,000 a year.

Cyn terfynu, rwyf am grybwyll un ystadegyn brawychus, sef fod llai na hanner gorsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru yn hollol hygyrch i bobl anabl. Ystadegyn brawychus arall yw mai dim ond 16 y cant o orsafoedd yng Nghymru sydd â mynediad cadair olwyn i blatfformau. Nid oes gan ryw 36 y cant unrhyw fath o fynediad. Yn ychwanegol i hyn, codwyd pryderon am y diffyg cyhoeddusrwydd i gynlluniau fel y cerdyn trên i bobl anabl. I gymhlethu’r broblem, mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru wedi torri ar eu consesiynau teithio hanner pris ar gyfer defnyddwyr rheilffyrdd henoed a’r anabl. Enghraifft o hyn yw’r ffaith bod Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin wedi dod â chytundeb gyda Threnau Arriva Cymru i ben mewn ymgais i arbed £ 60,000 y flwyddyn.

This has a very real effect on people’s lives. Take for example the experience of a wheelchair user from Bridgend who said that, if they go out for the night with their friends, they cannot get the last train back to Bridgend because no-one would be at the station to open the side gate and they therefore would not be able to get over the footbridge. There is also the experience of a lady from Prestatyn who said that she has tried to use the assisted booking system, which means that you have to book 24 hours in advance. However, there is only one space available per train, so if you want to go somewhere with another disabled person, you have to travel on a separate train. Andrea Gordon from the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association said that it is hard to put into words how intimidating some rail stations can be.

Mae hyn yn cael effaith wirioneddol ar fywydau pobl. Cymerwch brofiad defnyddiwr cadair olwyn o Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr, er enghraifft, a ddywedodd, os ydynt yn mynd allan am y noson gyda’u ffrindiau, ni allant gael y trên olaf yn ôl i Ben-y-bont gan na fyddai unrhyw un yn yr orsaf i agor y giât ochr ac na fyddent felly yn gallu mynd dros y bont droed. Ceir hefyd y profiad o ferch o Brestatyn a ddywedodd ei bod wedi ceisio defnyddio’r system archebu a gynorthwyir, sy’n golygu bod yn rhaid i chi archebu 24 awr ymlaen llaw. Fodd bynnag, dim ond un lle sydd ar gael i bob trên, felly os ydych chi eisiau mynd i rywle gyda pherson arall anabl, mae’n rhaid i chi deithio ar drên ar wahân. Dywedodd Andrea Gordon o Gymdeithas Cŵn Tywys y Deillion ei bod yn anodd rhoi mewn geiriau pa mor heriol y gall rhai gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd fod.

In July, I travelled from Cardiff back to Gowerton, travelling west with Arriva Trains. When we stopped at Swansea, I witnessed an elderly lady in a wheelchair being put onto a very packed train. It was very embarrassing to watch the lady and to see her embarrassment about the difficulty that she was causing other passengers. I felt disbelief at the reaction of the passengers on the train. It is incumbent upon us to implement change in this area and to change people’s attitudes to disabled people.

Ym mis Gorffennaf, teithiais o Gaerdydd yn ôl i Dre-gŵyr, gan deithio i’r gorllewin gyda Threnau Arriva. Pan arhosom ni yn Abertawe, gwelais wraig oedrannus mewn cadair olwyn yn cael ei rhoi ar drên gorlawn. Roedd gwylio’r wraig yn codi embaras arnaf, a gallwn weld ei hembaras hi oherwydd y drafferth roedd hi’n ei hachosi i deithwyr eraill. Roedd ymateb rhai o’r teithwyr ar y trên, yn fy marn i, yn anodd i’w gredu. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i gyflwyno newidiadau yn y maes hwn ac i newid agweddau pobl tuag at bobl anabl.

Charities such as Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru have noted the second-class system in operation for disabled people. Similarly, a former disability rights commissioner for Wales mentioned the common problems of,

Mae elusennau fel cymdeithas Multiple Sclerosis Cymru wedi nodi’r system eilradd sydd ar waith ar gyfer pobl anabl. Yn yr un modd, crybwyllodd cyn gomisiynydd hawliau anabledd yng Nghymru broblemau cyffredin, fel,

‘no toilets on the train, very few toilets facilities in stations, very often not an opportunity to get some help or support at the station, no access to the station’.

dim toiledau ar y trên, ychydig iawn o gyfleusterau toiledau mewn gorsafoedd, dim cyfle’n aml i gael ychydig o gymorth neu gefnogaeth yn yr orsaf, dim mynediad i’r orsaf.

He added,

Ychwanegodd,

‘Would you take the chance of getting on a train at one point at a station that was accessible to arrive at another without knowing whether it was accessible or that support would be there?’  

A fyddech chi’n cymryd y siawns o fynd ar drên mewn un gorsaf a oedd yn hygyrch a theithio i un arall heb wybod a fyddai’r orsaf honno’n hygyrch neu a fyddai cefnogaeth yno?

Disability Wales have also raised similar concerns, stating,

Mae Anabledd Cymru hefyd wedi codi nifer o bryderon tebyg, gan ddweud,

‘Lack of accessibility can make it very difficult for disabled people to be spontaneous.’

Gall diffyg hygyrchedd ei gwneud yn anodd iawn i bobl anabl wneud penderfyniadau ar hap.

These are real and human concerns that affect our constituents on a daily basis. I hope that all Members can approach this serious debate without party political bias and follow the tone that we are setting on this side of the Chamber and accept this motion and the need for urgent action.

Mae’r pryderon yma’n bryderon gwirioneddol a dynol sy’n effeithio ar ein hetholwyr yn ddyddiol. Gobeithiaf y gall pob Aelod gymryd y ddadl hon o ddifrif heb ragfarn wleidyddol plaid a dilyn y dôn yr ydym yn ei gosod ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr a derbyn y cynnig hwn a’r angen i weithredu ar frys.

Gwelliant 1 Peter Black

Amendment 1 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau ei bod yn ymgynghori’n llawn â phobl anabl a chynrychiolwyr grwpiau anabledd wrth ddatblygu unrhyw gynlluniau ar gyfer gwella hygyrchedd i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus.

Calls for the Welsh government to ensure that it fully consults with disabled people and representatives of disability groups in developing any plans for improvements for accessibility to public transport.

Eluned Parrott: I move amendment 1 in the name of Peter Black.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Peter Black.

Equality of access to public transport is a basic human right in this day and age. Therefore, I welcome this debate today and I thank the Conservative group for using their time to bring this important issue forward.

Mae mynediad cydradd i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn hawl ddynol sylfaenol yn yr oes sydd ohoni. Felly, croesawaf y ddadl hon heddiw a diolchaf i’r grŵp Ceidwadol am ddefnyddio’i amser i gyflwyno’r mater pwysig hwn.

It is difficult for any of us to imagine how we would react if we were to suddenly find our own mobility restricted. We have already heard that fewer than half of Wales’s railway stations are accessible to wheelchair users and even fewer have accessible facilities, such as toilets. None of the rolling stock running on the Valleys lines in south Wales has accessible toilets. For people with disabilities, many of whom are not able to drive, the public transport network is their only means of communicating with the outside world, getting to work, seeing friends and family, and escaping the confinement of their home.

Mae’n anodd i unrhyw un ohonom ddychmygu sut y byddem yn ymateb pe baem ni, yn sydyn, yn canfod bod ein symudedd ni’n hunain wedi’i gyfyngu. Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed bod llai na hanner gorsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru yn hygyrch i ddefnyddwyr cadair olwyn, ac mae hyd yn oed llai o gyfleusterau hygyrch, fel toiledau. Nid oes gan yr un o’r cerbydau sy’n rhedeg ar reilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn ne Cymru doiledau hygyrch. O safbwynt pobl ag anableddau, nad yw llawer ohonynt yn gallu gyrru, y rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yw eu hunig ffordd o gyfathrebu â’r byd y tu allan, i fynd i’r gwaith, i weld ffrindiau a theulu, ac i ddianc rhag caethiwed eu cartref.

We cannot accurately measure the number of disabled people using our transport network, which tends to hide the scale of the problem that we face. However, we can look at figures such as the use of the disabled person’s railcard. Over the past two years, the number of journeys in Wales made using these railcards has shot up by more than 20 per cent to 455,000 per year. Over the next few years our railway system will have to adapt to meet legislation to make sure that disabled people have reasonable access.

Ni allwn fesur yn gywir nifer y bobl anabl sy’n defnyddio ein rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth, ac mae hynny’n tueddu i guddio maint y broblem a wynebwn. Fodd bynnag, gallwn edrych ar ffigurau o ran defnydd y cerdyn rheilffordd ar gyfer pobl anabl. Dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf, mae nifer y teithiau yng Nghymru a wnaed trwy ddefnyddio’r cardiau hyn wedi cynyddu’n aruthrol, dros 20 y cant i 455,000 y flwyddyn. Dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf, bydd yn rhaid i’n system reilffyrdd addasu i gwrdd â’r ddeddfwriaeth i sicrhau bod gan bobl anabl fynediad rhesymol.

I spoke to Network Rail two weeks ago and its representatives are aware of the challenges that they face. Crucially, they also recognise the fact that consulting disability groups when planning accessible facilities will help them to deliver better customer service and a better experience for the traveller.

Siaradais â Network Rail bythefnos yn ôl ac mae ei gynrychiolwyr yn ymwybodol o’r heriau sy’n eu hwynebu. Yn hanfodol, maent hefyd yn cydnabod y ffaith y bydd ymgynghori â grwpiau anabledd wrth gynllunio cyfleusterau hygyrch yn eu helpu i ddarparu gwell gwasanaeth i gwsmeriaid ac yn brofiad gwell i’r teithiwr.

Ann Jones: I would be interested to know whether you challenged Network Rail’s representatives on whether they had spoken to disabled people about access and what the response of those people was.

 Ann Jones: Byddai gennyf ddiddordeb gwybod a wnaethoch chi herio cynrychiolwyr Network Rail ynghylch a oeddent wedi siarad â phobl anabl ynghylch mynediad a beth oedd ymateb y bobl hynny.

Eluned Parrott: Yes, I did; that was one of the things that I challenged them on. When I spoke to them, we looked at the statistics, they gave me an idea as to their plans for the future, and I challenged them on whether they had been speaking to the relevant people. In fact, I gave them the contact details of some of the people they need to speak to.

Eluned Parrott: Do, mi wnes; dyna un o’r pethau yr heriais i nhw yn ei gylch. Pan siaradais â nhw, edrychom ar yr ystadegau, rhoesant hwy syniad ynghylch eu cynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol, a heriais i hwy ynghylch a oeddent wedi bod yn siarad â’r bobl berthnasol. Yn wir, rhoddais fanylion cyswllt rhai o’r bobl y mae angen iddynt siarad â nhw.

Unfortunately, the problem is that when public bodies look for the most efficient solution, they seem to adopt a one-size-fits-all approach. Sadly, in reality, in relation to disabilities, one size does not fit anyone—no two disabled people have exactly the same needs. We need to make sure that we take a balanced response to understand what those needs are.

Yn anffodus, y broblem yw bod cyrff cyhoeddus i weld yn mabwysiadu yr un dull ar gyfer pawb pan fyddan nhw’n ceisio dod o hyd i’r datrysiad mwyaf effeithlon. Yn anffodus, mewn gwirionedd, yng nghyd-destun anableddau, nid yw’r un ateb yn siwtio pawb—nid oes gan ddau berson anabl yn union yr un anghenion. Mae angen i ni sicrhau ein bod yn ymateb yn gytbwys er mwyn deall beth yw’r anghenion hynny.

Two weeks ago, I met the MS Society in Cardiff. I was prepared to hear that there was not enough access because I already knew the statistics; however, I did not expect to hear that even where accessible features were being installed, they were not always of assistance to disabled people. People with MS have a wide variety of symptoms and accessibility needs, and problems arise for many of them when they do not fit into the pigeon hole that they have been allocated.

Bythefnos yn ôl, cyfarfûm â’r MS Society yng Nghaerdydd. Roeddwn yn barod i glywed nad oedd digon o fynediad am fy mod eisoes yn gyfarwydd â’r ystadegau; fodd bynnag, nid oeddwn yn disgwyl clywed nad yw cyfleusterau hygyrch, hyd yn oed lle maent yn cael eu gosod, yn wastad o gymorth i bobl anabl. Mae gan bobl sydd ag MS amrywiaeth eang o symptomau ac anghenion hygyrchedd, ac mae problemau’n codi i nifer ohonynt pan nad ydynt yn ffitio’r categori y maen nhw wedi ei gosod ynddi.

I will highlight some of the examples where common sense has not been applied and disabled people have been denied access even to ‘accessible’ facilities. There are accessible toilets that have doors that open inwards so that when you put a wheelchair in them you cannot shut the door. Lifts have been installed that are not big enough to take both the wheelchair and the person pushing it. There are also ramps that are too narrow for a modern electric wheelchair to be able to use safely and ramps that are so steep that someone in a manual wheelchair would shoot off the end at about twice the speed of sound. Some ramps have a shallow wall built next to them, which is not always a problem for wheelchair users, but is a major trip hazard for someone with a visual impairment.

Tynnaf sylw at rai o’r enghreifftiau lle na ddefnyddiwyd synnwyr cyffredin a lle na chafodd phobl anabl fynediad hyd yn oed at gyfleusterau ‘hygyrch’. Mae yna doiledau hygyrch sydd â drysau sy’n agor i mewn, felly pan fyddwch yn rhoi cadair olwyn ynddynt, nid ydych yn gallu cau’r drws. Mae lifftiau mewn ambell le nad ydynt yn ddigon mawr i gymryd y gadair olwyn a’r person sy’n ei gwthio. Mae yna hefyd rampiau sy’n rhy gul i gadair olwyn drydan fodern fynd ar hyd iddynt yn ddiogel, a rampiau sydd mor serth y byddai rhywun mewn cadair olwyn yn saethu oddi ar y pen yn gynt na chyflymder sain. Caiff wal fas ei hadeiladu wrth ymyl ambell ramp, ac er nad yw hynny bob amser yn broblem i ddefnyddwyr cadeiriau olwyn, mae’n achosi perygl mawr i rywun â nam ar y golwg.

My own village station in Rhoose was built by the Welsh Government as part of the reopening of the Vale of Glamorgan line, which we all very much welcome. As you would expect, it has ramped access, but it is a shame that someone, in their wisdom, decided to fit a kissing gate at the bottom of the ramp. Its purpose is obviously to prevent cyclists from riding down the ramp, but it is also an effective deterrent to anyone planning to use their wheelchair on it. The railings are too close together, wheelchairs are not good at making turns and you cannot make the turn at that station entrance.

Adeiladwyd fy ngorsaf bentref i yn y Rhws gan Lywodraeth Cymru fel rhan o’r gwaith o ailagor llinell Bro Morgannwg, yr ydym i gyd yn ei groesawu. Fel y byddech yn disgwyl, mae mynediad drwy ramp i’w gael yno, ond mae’n drueni bod rhywun, yn ei ddoethineb, wedi penderfynu gosod giât fochyn ar waelod y ramp. Ei bwrpas yn amlwg yw i atal beicwyr rhag seiclo i lawr y ramp, ond mae hefyd yn effeithiol wrth atal unrhyw un sy’n bwriadu defnyddio eu cadair olwyn arno. Mae’r rheiliau yn rhy agos at ei gilydd, nid yw cadeiriau olwyn yn hawdd i’w troi ac ni allwch droi ym mynedfa’r orsaf honno.

The support available to people with disabilities and the facilities and equipment used by disabled people change over time. A modern wheelchair is a completely different beast to the ones that we had 20 years ago. That is not always taken into account when access provisions are made, and that is why we need to ensure that representatives of people with disabilities are involved in helping our public bodies—our public transport operators in this instance—to plan their accessibility measures. They need to be represented today, tomorrow and in the future so that as their support and equipment changes and develops over time, our accessible infrastructure continues to be accessible. Amendment 1 that I am proposing today is aimed at ensuring that that happens. It is important because, currently, the work that is being undertaken does not always have the desired impact. It is achievable because I have spoken to the station landlords in Network Rail and some of the disability charities, who have all said that they would support it. Finally, it would save us money because it would cut out wasteful spending on accessible features that do not work and then have to be replaced at a later date. There are examples of this kind of approach working well in practice, for example, Swansea Access For Everyone working with Arriva Trains Wales and Swansea council. The purpose of this amendment—

Mae’r cymorth sydd ar gael i bobl ag anableddau a’r cyfleusterau a’r offer a ddefnyddir gan bobl anabl yn newid dros amser. Mae’r gadair olwyn fodern yn greadur hollol wahanol i’r rhai oedd gennym 20 mlynedd yn ôl. Nid yw hynny’n wastad yn cael ei ystyried wrth wneud trefniadau mynediad, a dyna pam mae angen inni sicrhau bod cynrychiolwyr ar ran pobl ag anableddau yn cael eu cynnwys wrth helpu ein cyrff cyhoeddus—ein gweithredwyr trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn yr achos hwn—i gynllunio eu mesurau hygyrchedd. Mae angen iddynt gael eu cynrychioli heddiw, yfory ac yn y dyfodol fel bod ein seilwaith hygyrch yn parhau i fod yn hygyrch wrth i’r gefnogaeth sydd ar gael iddyn nhw newid, ac wrth i’w hoffer newid a datblygu. Mae gwelliant 1 a gynigiaf heddiw yn anelu at sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd. Mae’n bwysig oherwydd, ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’r gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud wastad yn cael yr effaith a ddymunir. Mae’n bosib cyflawni hyn, oherwydd rwyf wedi siarad â landlordiaid gorsafoedd yn Network Rail a rhai o’r elusennau anabledd, sydd i gyd wedi dweud y byddent yn ei gefnogi. Yn olaf, byddai’n arbed arian i ni gan y byddai’n torri ar wariant gwastraffus ar nodweddion hygyrch sydd ddim yn gweithio ac sy’n gorfod cael eu hail-wneud yn ddiweddarach. Mae gennym enghreifftiau o hyn yn gweithio’n dda yn ymarferol, er enghraifft, Mynediad i Bawb Abertawe yn gweithio gyda Threnau Arriva Cymru a chyngor Abertawe. Pwrpas y gwelliant hwn—

The Presiding Officer: Order. Will you wind up please?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben os gwelwch yn dda?

Eluned Parrott: The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that our transport service gives access to people who need it most, not only in theory, but in practice.

Eluned Parrott: Pwrpas y gwelliant hwn yw sicrhau bod ein gwasanaeth cludiant yn rhoi mynediad i’r bobl sydd ei angen fwyaf, nid yn unig mewn theori, ond yn ymarferol.

William Graham: Like the two previous speakers, I wish to concentrate on three particular issues: design for access, current problems and information, or rather the lack of it. Access should be an integral design feature of our transport network. Ideally, we should seek greater integration of our transport system and a central point where buses, trains and taxis can all converge. Passengers would certainly like to see that, and it is also the aspiration of many cities and towns. Unfortunately, the reality in most of our cities and towns is that this has not been realised, and transferring between different forms of transport is difficult and confusing. This is a problem for all passengers, but the difficulties are far greater for someone who is disabled. It has been estimated that, for someone who is fit and healthy, it takes about five minutes to walk from Newport rail station to the bus station. It takes about 10 minutes to walk from Wrexham rail station to the bus station there. These times can be trebled for some disabled people.

William Graham: Yn debyg i’r ddau siaradwr blaenorol, hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar dri mater penodol: dylunio mynediad, problemau cyfredol a gwybodaeth, neu yn hytrach y diffyg gwybodaeth. Dylai mynediad fod yn nodwedd annatod o ddylunio yn ein rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth. Yn ddelfrydol, dylem geisio mwy o integreiddio yn ein system drafnidiaeth, ynghyd â phwynt canolog lle y gall bysiau, trenau a thacsis gyfarfod. Byddai teithwyr yn sicr yn hoffi gweld hynny, ac mae hefyd yn ddyhead gan lawer o ddinasoedd a threfi. Yn anffodus, y realiti yn y rhan fwyaf o’n dinasoedd a threfi yw nad yw hyn wedi cael ei wireddu, ac mae trosglwyddo rhwng gwahanol fathau o gludiant yn anodd ac yn ddryslyd. Mae hon yn broblem ar gyfer pob teithiwr, ond mae’r anawsterau yn llawer mwy i rywun sy’n anabl. Amcangyfrifir ei bod hi’n cymryd tua phum munud i rywun sy’n ffit ac yn iach i gerdded o orsaf drenau Casnewydd i’r orsaf fysiau. Mae’n cymryd tua 10 munud i gerdded o orsaf drenau Wrecsam i’r orsaf fysiau yno. Gall yr amserau yma gael eu treblu yn achos rhai pobl anabl.

However, some of the most appalling design features relate to access to our rail network. It seems to be ridiculous not to have wheelchair access to a station platform but to have wheelchair access onto or from a train on that platform. A wheelchair user not aware of the situation can arrive by train at Pontypool and New Inn station and be assisted by the guard or conductor onto the platform; however, once the train has departed, they would find themselves stranded on the platform as there are 24 steps down to the subway that leads to the station exit. Pontypool and New Inn station is unmanned, although there is a telephone helpline for passengers. Those who think that this situation could not arise should think again. For example, a disabled lady was stranded on Rhyl station because the passenger lifts were not working. It was 45 minutes before someone answered her helpline call. Then, after the involvement of North Wales Police and British Transport Police, an ambulance crew was required to give her medical attention before she was carried from the station.

Fodd bynnag, mae rhai o’r nodweddion dylunio mwyaf ofnadwy yn ymwneud â mynediad i’n rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd. Mae’n ymddangos yn chwerthinllyd i beidio â chael mynediad i gadeiriau olwyn i blatfform gorsaf ond bod cadeiriau olwyn yn gallu mynd i drenau neu oddi arnynt o’r platfform hwnnw. Gall defnyddiwr cadair olwyn nad yw’n ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa gyrraedd ar drên i orsaf Pont-y-pŵl a New Inn a chael ei gynorthwyo gan y gard neu’r casglwr tocynnau i gyrraedd y platfform; fodd bynnag, wedi i’r trên adael, ni fyddai modd iddynt adael y platfform gan fod 24 o risiau i lawr i’r isffordd sy’n arwain at allanfa’r orsaf. Nid oes staff yn gweithio ar orsaf Pont-y-pŵl a New Inn, ond mae yna linell gymorth ar gyfer teithwyr. Dylai’r rheini sy’n meddwl na allai sefyllfa o’r fath godi feddwl eto. Er enghraifft, roedd gwraig anabl yn sownd ar orsaf y Rhyl oherwydd nad oedd y lifftiau yn gweithio. Aeth 45 munud heibio cyn i rywun ateb ei galwad i’r llinell gymorth. Yna, ar ôl i Heddlu Gogledd Cymru a Heddlu Trafnidiaeth Prydain ddelio â’r mater, roedd angen criw ambiwlans i roi sylw meddygol i’r wraig cyn iddi gael ei chario o’r orsaf.

I appreciate that many access issues arise from the age of our stations. However, from August 2007 until September 2010, wheelchair access to the Assembly-Government-funded platform 4 at Newport station was via a taxi arranged by station staff. Today, despite many years of addressing accessibility, there are still too many barriers for passengers with limited mobility to overcome. In South Wales East there are 30 railway stations; 24 of these are unmanned, 13 are accessed by ramps with a gradient steeper than 1:12 and only three have accessible lavatory facilities. The last point is not only an issue for disabled passengers: the Welsh Senate of Older People highlights how a lack of access to lavatory facilities reduces the ability of older people to remain active and restricts their time away from their home.

Yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod llawer o faterion mynediad yn codi yn sgîl oedran ein gorsafoedd. Fodd bynnag, o fis Awst 2007 i fis Medi 2010, yr oedd cadeiriau olwyn yn cael mynediad i blatfform 4 yng ngorsaf Casnewydd, a ariennir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, drwy dacsi a drefnwyd gan staff yr orsaf. Heddiw, er gwaethaf nifer o flynyddoedd o fynd i’r afael â hygyrchedd, mae’n dal i fod gennym ormod o rwystrau y mae’n rhaid i deithwyr â symudedd cyfyngedig eu goresgyn. Yn Nwyrain De Cymru, mae 30 o orsafoedd rheilffyrdd; nid oes staff yn 24 o’r rhain; ceir mynediad i 13 ohonynt drwy ddefnyddio rampiau â graddiant sy’n fwy serth na 1:12; a dim ond tri sydd â chyfleusterau toiled hygyrch. Mae’r pwynt olaf nid yn unig yn broblem i deithwyr anabl: mae Senedd Pobl Hŷn Cymru wedi dangos sut y mae diffyg mynediad i gyfleusterau toiled yn lleihau gallu pobl hŷn i barhau’n weithgar ac yn cyfyngu ar eu hamser i ffwrdd o’u cartref.

3.15 p.m.

I mentioned the subway and the 24 steps at Pontypool and New Inn station, and note similar restrictions at Chepstow station, where access to the Newport bound platform is via a step foot bridge, and Abergavenny station, where access to the Newport bound platform requires a footbridge of 45 steps or barrow crossing during ticket-office hours. These are the platforms used by people travelling to work. It is an alarming statistic that 23 per cent of disabled people have to turn down jobs due to a lack of accessible transport. Public transport is, by definition, only public if it is available to all.

Soniais am y tanlwybr a’r 24 o risiau yng ngorsaf Mhont-y-pŵl a New Inn, ac rwy’n nodi cyfyngiadau tebyg yng ngorsaf Cas-gwent, lle mae mynediad at y platfform tuag at Gasnewydd dros bont risiau, a gorsaf y Fenni, lle mae mynediad at y platform tuag at Gasnewydd yn golygu croesi pont droed â ganddi 45 o risiau neu groesi’r cledrau yn ystod oriau agor y swyddfa docynnau. Mae’r rhain yn blatfformau a ddefnyddir gan bobl sy’n teithio i’r gwaith. Mae’n ystadegyn brawychus bod 23 y cant o bobl anabl yn gorfod gwrthod swyddi oherwydd diffyg cludiant hygyrch. Mae trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, drwy ddiffiniad, ond yn gyhoeddus os yw ar gael i bawb.

Finally, I turn to the issue of information. Most of us only need to enquire about the time of a train and the cost of the fare. A wheelchair user has to know if there is access to the platform, if there is assistance at their destination, if there is a platform lift and if it will be working. Where buses and trains are accessible it is important that information about accessibility is provided, otherwise accessible services could be made inaccessible if disabled people are not told when the right service will be running. Similarly, where a service is advertised as accessible, every effort should be made to ensure that accessible buses run on that route. Access to information is vital when a service does not arrive, is late or is full and, therefore, may not stop. At peak times, if the bus does not arrive late, it might be so full of passengers it is not possible for someone using a wheelchair, a frame or other community equipment to get in, forcing them to wait for the next bus. For able passengers, this is a nuisance; for disabled passengers, the problem is far greater. Depending on the particular disability, the passenger may have planned to get on a specific bus at a specific time or they may not know when the next bus is due. Someone with a visual disability might not be able to see the proper timetable to find out when the next bus will arrive. If information about accessibility is not already available, accessible services become completely inaccessible.

Yn olaf, trof at y mater o wybodaeth. Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom ddim ond eisiau holi amser y trên a chost tocyn. Mae’n rhaid i ddefnyddiwr cadair olwyn wybod a oes mynediad i’r platfform, a oes cymorth ar gael yn eu cyrchfan, a oes lifft i’r platfform ac a fydd yn gweithio. Lle mae bysiau a threnau yn hygyrch, mae’n bwysig y darperir gwybodaeth am eu hygyrchedd, neu, fel arall, gallai gwasanaethau hygyrch gael eu gwneud yn anhygyrch os na ddywedir wrth bobl anabl pan mae’r gwasanaeth cywir yn rhedeg. Yn yr un modd, lle mae gwasanaeth yn cael ei hysbysebu yn un hygyrch, dylid gwneud pob ymdrech i sicrhau bod bysiau hygyrch yn rhedeg ar y llwybr hwnnw. Mae mynediad at wybodaeth yn hanfodol pan nad yw’r gwasanaeth yn cyrraedd, pan mae’n hwyr neu’n llawn ac, o bosibl, ddim yn stopio. Ar adegau prysur, os na fydd y bws yn cyrraedd yn hwyr, gallai fod mor llawn o deithwyr nad yw’n bosibl i rywun sy’n defnyddio cadair olwyn, ffrâm neu offer cymunedol arall gael lle, gan eu gorfodi i aros am y bws nesaf. I deithwyr nad ydynt yn anabl, mae hynny’n niwsans; i deithwyr anabl, mae’r broblem yn fwy o lawer. Yn dibynnu ar yr anabledd penodol, gall y teithiwr fod wedi bwriadu mynd ar fws penodol ar adeg benodol neu efallai nad ydynt yn gwybod pryd bydd y bws nesaf yn dod. Mae’n bosibl na fydd rhywun ag anabledd gweledol yn gallu gweld yr amserlen briodol i gael gwybod pryd bydd y bws nesaf yn cyrraedd. Os nad yw gwybodaeth am hygyrchedd ar gael ymlaen llaw, mae gwasanaethau hygyrch yn troi’n gwbl anhygyrch.

Sadly, most of the comments that I have made this afternoon I originally made in 2008. Minister, we look to you now for action.

Yn anffodus, cafodd y rhan fwyaf o’r sylwadau yr wyf wedi’u gwneud y prynhawn yma eu gwneud gennyf yn wreiddiol yn 2008. Weinidog, edrychwn i chi yn awr i weithredu.

Rebecca Evans: I am pleased that the Welsh Government has signed up to the social model of disability, recognising that people are more disabled by poor design, inaccessible services and other people’s attitudes than they are by their impairment. I am glad that the Government has committed to keep this at the heart of policy development and delivery. This must include the national transport plan, but it must also inform the Government’s discussions with the UK Department for Transport, Network Rail and others involved in the delivery of public transport here in Wales. I am sure that many Members will seek to focus their contributions on the physical aspects of public transport: accessibility of platforms, facilities and so on. I would certainly agree that these are extremely important and serious issues.

Rebecca Evans: Yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i’r model cymdeithasol o anabledd, gan gydnabod bod pobl yn anabl yn fwy oherwydd dylunio gwael, gwasanaethau anhygyrch ac agweddau pobl eraill na thrwy amhariad. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i gadw hyn wrth galon datblygu a chyflawni polisi. Rhaid i hyn gynnwys y cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol, ond rhaid iddo hefyd lywio trafodaethau’r Llywodraeth ag Adran Drafnidiaeth y DU, Network Rail ac eraill sy’n ymwneud â darparu cludiant cyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd llawer o Aelodau yn ceisio canolbwyntio eu cyfraniadau ar yr agweddau ffisegol ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus: hygyrchedd platfformau, cyfleusterau ac ati. Byddwn yn sicr yn cytuno bod y rhain yn faterion hynod o bwysig a difrifol.

However, I will focus my contribution on the accessibility of public transport for people with unseen disabilities. By unseen disabilities, I am talking about things like mental illness, learning difficulties and autism. For individuals living with these disabilities, ‘accessibility’ might mean something completely different. To make travel or safety information for people with learning disabilities or autism inclusive, it may need to be made available in easyread or picture form. I would ask the Government, therefore, to explore how it can work with transport providers and the voluntary sector to open up access to travel information to people who may need it in these formats.

Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn canolbwyntio fy nghyfraniad ar hygyrchedd trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus ar gyfer pobl ag anableddau anweledig. Wrth ddweud anableddau anweledig, yr wyf yn sôn am bethau fel salwch meddwl, anawsterau dysgu ac awtistiaeth. Ar gyfer unigolion sy’n byw gyda’r anableddau hyn, gallai ‘hygyrchedd’ olygu rhywbeth hollol wahanol. I wneud gwybodaeth am deithio neu ddiogelwch yn gynhwysol ar gyfer pobl ag anableddau dysgu neu awtistiaeth, mae angen iddo fod ar gael ar ffurf hawdd ei darllen neu lun. Byddwn yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth, felly, archwilio sut y gall weithio gyda darparwyr trafnidiaeth a’r sector gwirfoddol i agor mynediad at wybodaeth deithio i bobl sydd ei hangen yn y fformatau hyn.

People with disabilities, both seen and unseen, are often disproportionately victims of bullying. This bullying sometimes takes place by strangers in public places such as bus stops or at train stations. In its evidence to the previous Committee on Equality of Opportunity’s inquiry into the accessibility of railway stations, Passenger Focus noted how more than half of people with disabilities are concerned about their personal security when using train stations. Addressing this will be part of the Government’s wider work to tackle disability hate crime and to raise awareness and acceptance of difference.

Mae pobl ag anableddau, y gellir eu gweld ac sy’n anweledig, yn aml yn dioddef bwlio ar raddfa anghymesur. Dieithriaid sydd weithiau’n gyfrifol am y bwlio hwn mewn mannau cyhoeddus fel arosfannau bysiau neu orsafoedd trên. Yn ei dystiolaeth i ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal blaenorol i hygyrchedd gorsafoedd rheilffordd, nododd Passenger Focus fod mwy na hanner y bobl ag anableddau yn pryderu am eu diogelwch personol wrth ddefnyddio gorsafoedd trên. Bydd mynd i’r afael â hyn yn rhan o waith ehangach y Llywodraeth i fynd i’r afael â throseddau casineb anabledd ac i godi ymwybyddiaeth ynghylch gwahaniaeth.

However, there are some small practical actions that can be taken in order to improve the situation. Some smaller train stations, for example, still do not have a help button to call for assistance. By simply addressing this, providers could give people with disabilities more confidence in using trains and potentially deter the perpetrators of bullying. Bearing in mind that Disability Wales tells us that some people with disabilities prefer to travel during the less busy off-peak times, they may find that they are more isolated when travelling.

Fodd bynnag, ceir rhai camau gweithredu ymarferol bach y gellir eu cymryd i wella’r sefyllfa. Mae rhai gorsafoedd trenau llai o faint, er enghraifft, nad oes ganddynt fotwm cymorth i alw am gymorth. Drwy ymdrin â hyn, gallai darparwyr roi mwy o hyder i bobl ag anableddau wrth ddefnyddio trenau ac, o bosibl, atal y rhai sy’n bwlio. O gofio bod Anabledd Cymru yn dweud wrthym y mae’n well gan rai pobl ag anableddau i deithio yn ystod adegau tawel llai prysur, efallai eu bod wedi’u hynysu’n fwy wrth deithio.

It is vital to consult with disabled people and representatives of disability groups in developing plans for improvements to transport accessibility. I know that the Welsh Government is already working with the railway industry to seek to achieve exemplary status in actively involving disabled people in planning rail improvements and monitoring rail accessibility issues. In doing so, I urge the Welsh Government to ensure that people with unseen disabilities and their representatives are also included in this consultation, because they will have their own important viewpoints as to what exactly accessibility means to them.

Mae’n hollbwysig i ymgynghori â phobl anabl a chynrychiolwyr grwpiau anabledd wrth ddatblygu cynlluniau ar gyfer gwelliannau i hygyrchedd trafnidiaeth. Gwn fod Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn gweithio gyda’r diwydiant rheilffordd i geisio sicrhau statws rhagorol wrth fynd ati i gynnwys pobl anabl wrth gynllunio gwelliannau rheilffyrdd a monitro materion hygyrchedd rheilffyrdd. Wrth wneud hynny, anogaf Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod pobl ag anableddau anweledig a’u cynrychiolwyr wedi’u cynnwys yn yr ymgynghoriad hwn, oherwydd bydd ganddynt eu safbwyntiau pwysig eu hunain o ran beth yn union mae hygyrchedd yn golygu iddynt.

People with disabilities have the right to access and enjoy all aspects of life, many of which, such as employment or socialising, require the use of public transport. The free bus pass for older people, disabled people and their carers has been a real success, and the Labour Party is committed to keeping it.

Mae gan bobl ag anableddau yr hawl i fwynhau a chael mynediad at bob agwedd o fywyd, y mae llawer ohonynt, fel cyflogaeth neu gymdeithasu, yn ddibynnol ar ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Mae’r tocyn bws am ddim ar gyfer pobl hŷn, pobl anabl a’u gofalwyr wedi bod yn llwyddiant go iawn, ac mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi’i hymrwymo i’w gadw.

I will close by asking the Minister to consider undertaking an assessment as to whether people with unseen disabilities are fully benefiting from the free bus pass. I also ask the Minister to encourage local authorities and other bodies to work with the rail industry to improve the take-up of disabled people’s railcards among people with unseen disabilities, as they are often among the most disenfranchised people in our society.

Byddaf yn gorffen drwy ofyn i’r Gweinidog ystyried cynnal asesiad ynghylch a yw pobl ag anableddau anweledig yn elwa’n llawn ar y tocyn bws am ddim. Gofynnaf hefyd i’r Gweinidog annog awdurdodau lleol a chyrff eraill i weithio gyda’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd i wella’r niferoedd sy’n defnyddio tocynnau teithio i bobl anabl ymhlith pobl ag anableddau anweledig, oherwydd nhw, yn aml, yw rhai o’r bobl fwyaf difreintiedig yn ein cymdeithas.

Mohammad Asghar: For many of us, using public transport is easy, yet for those who are blind, partially sighted or suffer from other disabilities, accessing public transport can be a hugely daunting experience. One of the biggest issues for me is spontaneity. With less than half of railway stations fully accessible, buses largely lacking appropriate announcements, travel information often difficult to find in accessible formats and doubts existing over staff understanding, the journey for a disabled passenger often requires rigorous advanced planning.

Mohammad Asghar: I lawer ohonom, mae defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn hawdd, ac eto ar gyfer y rheini sy’n ddall, rhannol ddall neu’n dioddef o anableddau eraill, gall defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus fod yn brofiad hynod frawychus. Un o’r materion mwyaf i mi yw naturioldeb. Gyda llai na hanner y gorsafoedd rheilffordd yn gwbl hygyrch, bysiau yn aml ddim yn gwneud cyhoeddiadau priodol, gwybodaeth am deithio yn aml yn anodd dod o hyd iddi mewn fformatau hygyrch ac amheuon presennol ynghylch dealltwriaeth staff, mae angen i deithiwr anabl gynllunio ei daith yn drwyadl ymlaen llaw.

I passionately believe that the Welsh Government must do all that it can to ensure that disabled people find it as easy as possible to use public transport. This will ultimately allow many disabled people in Wales to live more independently. I have called for the introduction of audio and visual announcements on the bus network across Wales for a long time. This is relatively simple but hugely innovative technology, which makes travelling on buses so much easier for so many.

Credaf yn gryf fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud popeth yn ei gallu i sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn ei chael mor hawdd â phosibl i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Yn y pen draw, bydd hyn yn caniatáu i lawer o bobl anabl yng Nghymru fyw’n fwy annibynnol. Yr wyf wedi galw ers cryn amser am gyflwyno cyhoeddiadau sain a gweledol ar y rhwydwaith bysiau ledled Cymru. Mae’r dechnoleg hon yn hynod arloesol ond yn syml, sy’n gwneud teithio ar fysiau gymaint yn haws ar gyfer cynifer o bobl.

I was delighted when Newport Transport committed in evidence to the Committee on Equality of Opportunity to become the UK’s first bus operator to install audio destination announcements in all new buses procured. Sadly, due to the economic climate, my discussions would suggest that this conviction has been slightly downgraded. However, it remains committed to exploring this development, and also to the possibility of introducing visual announcements.

Yr oeddwn yn falch pan ymrwymodd Trafnidiaeth Casnewydd, mewn tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, i fod yn gwmni bws cyntaf y DU i osod offer cyhoeddiadau sain am gyrchfannau ym mhob bws newydd sy’n cael ei gaffael. Yn anffodus, oherwydd yr hinsawdd economaidd, byddai fy nhrafodaethau yn awgrymu bod y penderfyniad hwn wedi’i israddio ychydig. Fodd bynnag, mae’n parhau i fod wedi ymrwymo i ystyried y datblygiad hwn, a hefyd y posibilrwydd o gyflwyno cyhoeddiadau gweledol.

I recently welcomed staff from the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association to my regional office in Newport to meet Newport Transport officials. We await a commitment paper that the transport group has promised to prepare. I am eager to praise Newport Transport on its staff training. The mechanisms presently in place tailor the driver’s certificate of professional competence to include modules on the needs of disabled passengers.
Such good practice needs to be replicated across Wales, and I am eager to hear from the Minister on how the Welsh Government can influence this.

Yn ddiweddar, croesawais staff o Gymdeithas Cŵn Tywys y Deillion i’m swyddfa ranbarthol yng Nghasnewydd i gwrdd â swyddogion Trafnidiaeth Casnewydd. Rydym yn aros am bapur ymrwymo y mae’r grŵp trafnidiaeth wedi addo ei baratoi. Yr wyf yn awyddus i ganmol Trafnidiaeth Casnewydd am ei hyfforddiant staff. Mae’r mecanweithiau sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd yn teilwra tystysgrif cymhwysedd proffesiynol y gyrwyr i gynnwys modiwlau ar anghenion teithwyr anabl. Mae angen efelychu arfer da o’r fath ledled Cymru, ac yr wyf yn awyddus i glywed gan y Gweinidog am sut y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ddylanwadu ar hyn.

It is also essential that disabled service groups are consulted on training. Newport Transport told me that it has had dialogue with Gwent Sight Support, which is another positive step and the kind of thing that should be replicated across Wales.

Hefyd, mae’n hanfodol yr ymgynghorir â grwpiau anabl gwasanaeth ar hyfforddiant hefyd. Dywedodd Trafnidiaeth Casnewydd wrthyf ei fod wedi cael deialog gyda Gwent Sight Support, sy’n gam cadarnhaol arall a’r math o beth y dylid ei efelychu ledled Cymru.

Our motion today highlights extending the companion bus pass scheme, which is hugely important. Current regulations state that a severely disabled person may request one companion bus pass. Additional carers are required to pay for travel. This should be addressed, so that bus travellers who require help from more than one companion should be able to apply for additional passes. This is an issue that I raised with the First Minister earlier on in this Assembly, and I was pleased when he told me in writing that his officials were looking into this. I hope that the Welsh Government can provide us with an update on the developments in those discussions.

Mae ein cynnig heddiw yn pwysleisio ymestyn y cynllun tocyn bws i gydymaith, sy’n bwysig iawn. Mae rheoliadau presennol yn nodi y gall person ddifrifol anabl ofyn am un tocyn bws i gydymaith. Mae gofalwyr ychwanegol yn gorfod talu i deithio. Dylid rhoi sylw i hyn, fel y gall teithwyr bws sydd angen help gan fwy nag un cydymaith wneud cais am docynnau ychwanegol. Mae hwn yn fater a godais gyda’r Prif Weinidog yn gynharach yn y Cynulliad hwn, ac yr oeddwn yn falch pan ddywedodd wrthyf yn ysgrifenedig fod ei swyddogion yn ymchwilio i’r mater hwn. Gobeithiaf y gall Llywodraeth Cymru roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y datblygiadau yn y trafodaethau hynny.

I have recently spoken to the families of constituents who suffer from serious disabilities and need more than one companion when making bus journeys, and I feel that this additional support should be made available to severely disabled people in Wales. As I have said before, an inequitable flaw exists that needs addressing.

Yn ddiweddar, yr wyf wedi siarad â theuluoedd etholwyr sydd yn dioddef o anableddau difrifol ac mae angen mwy nag un cydymaith arnynt ar gyfer teithiau bws, a theimlaf y dylai’r cymorth ychwanegol hwn fod ar gael i bobl ag anableddau difrifol yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedais eisoes, mae gwendid anghyfartal yn bodoli y mae angen mynd i’r afael ag ef.

To conclude, in Wales, too many disabled people are presently daunted by the prospect of using public transport, because the system often lacks accessibility. While I welcome the improvements that have been made, 34 per cent of railway stations in Wales have no platform access for wheelchair users and nearly nine out of 10 railway stations lack wheelchair-accessible toilets. That is shameful, Minister. MS Cymru highlights how the 2011 Welsh Labour manifesto made reference to improving public transport accessibility.

I gloi, yng Nghymru, ar hyn o bryd, mae gormod o bobl anabl yn ofni defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus oherwydd mae’r system yn aml yn anhygyrch. Er y croesawaf y gwelliannau sydd wedi’u gwneud, nid oes gan 34 y cant o orsafoedd rheilffordd yng Nghymru fynediad i’r platfform ar gyfer defnyddwyr cadeiriau olwyn ac mae bron i naw o bob 10 gorsaf rheilffordd heb doiledau sy’n hygyrch i gadeiriau olwyn. Mae hynny’n gywilyddus, Weinidog. Mae MS Cymru yn tynnu sylw at sut y gwnaeth maniffesto Llafur Cymru 2011 gyfeirio at wella hygyrchedd trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Can you wind up, please?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Gorffennwch, os gwelwch yn dda.

Mohammad Asghar: I hope that the Welsh Government clears up its intentions today, as a lot of work remains to be done to ensure that the transport network allows disabled people to enjoy greater independence and, in many cases, to fulfil their potential in life.

Mohammad Asghar: Gobeithiaf y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn egluro ei bwriad heddiw, oherwydd mae llawer o waith i’w wneud i sicrhau bod y rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth yn caniatáu i bobl anabl fwynhau mwy o annibyniaeth ac, mewn llawer o achosion, gyflawni eu potensial mewn bywyd.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r cynnig hwn ar ran Plaid Cymru. Byddwn yn ei gefnogi—yn wir, nid oes unrhyw beth ynddo y byddem yn anghytuno ag ef, ac yr wyf yn mawr obeithio nad oes unrhyw beth ynddo y byddai unrhyw Aelod etholedig yn y lle hwn yn anghytuno ag ef. Dylem i gyd uno i gefnogi unrhyw ymgais i sicrhau bod trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn gwbl hygyrch i bobl ag anabledd. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi’r gwelliant sydd wedi’i gyflwyno gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, gwelliant 1, sydd yn ategu’r cynnig ac, os rhywbeth, yn ei gryfhau.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I welcome this motion on behalf of Plaid Cymru. We will be supporting it—in fact, it contains nothing with which we would disagree, and I very much hope that it contains nothing with which any elected Member in this place would disagree. We should all unite to support any endeavour to ensure that public transport is fully accessible to people with disabilities. I am happy to support the amendment put forward by the Liberal Democrats, amendment 1, which endorses the motion and, if anything, strengthens it.

Mae’r cynnig yn agor drwy sôn am y ffaith bod llai na hanner gorsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru yn gwbl hygyrch i bobl ag anabledd. Mae’r datganiad hwnnw yn llythrennol gywir, ond yn ôl ymchwil manwl MS Cymru ar hyn, dim ond 8 y cant, sef 16, o orsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru sydd yn gwbl hygyrch i bobl ag anabledd. Mae’r ystadegyn hwnnw yn adlewyrchu’r broblem sydd yn ein hwynebu a’r broblem lawer mwy sydd yn wynebu pobl ag anabledd wrth iddynt geisio defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus.

The motion opens by referring to the fact that fewer than half of Wales’s railway stations are fully accessible to people with a disability. That is literally true, but according to detailed research carried out by MS Wales, only 8 per cent, or 16, of Wales’s railway stations are fully accessible to people with a disability. That statistic reflects the problem that faces us and the much greater problem that faces people with a disability in trying to access public transport.

Mae’r cynnig hefyd yn sôn am yr angen i sicrhau bod pob elfen o’r gwasanaeth trenau yn gwbl hygyrch, ond byddwn yn ehangu hynny ac yn cefnogi galwad Mohammad Asghar i sicrhau bod gwybodaeth glywedol ar gael ar y rhwydwaith bysiau. Yn aml—yr ydym i gyd wedi cael y profiad hwn wrth deithio ar drenau—wedi gwneud rhan o’r daith, yr ydym yn gorfod trosglwyddo o drên i fws. Byddai hynny’n golygu bod pobl sydd â nam ar eu golwg neu sydd yn ddall mewn amgylchedd nad oeddent yn gwbl sicr ohono, heb wybodaeth hanfodol am y stop nesaf.

The motion also refers to the need to ensure that every element of the railway service is fully accessible, but I would expand that and support Mohammad Asghar’s call to ensure that audio information is made available on the bus network. Often—we have all had this experience when travelling by rail—having made part of our journey, we are transferred from the train and onto a bus. People with a visual impairment or who are blind would find themselves in an unfamiliar environment, without vital information on the next stop.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn amserol, oherwydd bu’r Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol yn derbyn tystiolaeth y bore yma am agwedd gyffredinol cymdeithas tuag at bobl ag anabledd, gan ganolbwyntio ar wynebu ymddygiad sydd yn aml yn gallu bod yn fygythiol neu sy’n eu trin fel dinasyddion eilradd.

This motion is timely, because the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee received evidence this morning about the general attitude of society towards people with a disability, focusing on behaviour that can often be threatening or that treats them as second-class citizens.

3.30 p.m.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn cyfeirio at yr angen i sicrhau bod pobl yn derbyn hyfforddiant. Mae pob cwmni rheilffordd yn gorfod darparu polisi amddiffyn pobl ag anabledd. Oni ddylai’r Llywodraeth fynnu, o fewn y polisi hwnnw, fod pob cwmni rheilffordd yn ymrwymo i gynnig hyfforddiant i’w staff ar sut i gynorthwyo pobl ag anabledd a sut i weithredu mewn ffordd ymarferol i ddod dros y rhwystrau sy’n amlwg yn eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd wrth iddynt geisio cael mynediad i drenau? Gwelaf fod y Gweinidog yn ymateb yn gadarnhaol i hynny; yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn cyfeirio at hynny wrth ymateb i’r ddadl, ac mae hynny i’w groesawu’n fawr iawn. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd y Gweinidog yn parhau â’r pwyslais oedd gan Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un ar ddatblygu trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ond hefyd ar geisio sicrhau mynediad i bobl ag anabledd i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Unwaith eto, gwelaf fod y Gweinidog yn ymateb yn gadarnhaol i hynny, a chroesawn hynny yn fawr iawn hefyd.

This motion refers to the need to ensure that people receive training. Every rail company has to have a policy on safeguarding people with a disability. Should the Government not insist that, within that policy, every rail company commits to offer staff training on how to assist people with a disability and how to operate in a practical way to overcome the obstacles that they clearly face at present in trying to access trains? I see that the Minister is responding in the affirmative to that; I am sure that he will refer to that in responding to the debate, and that it is very much to be welcomed. I also hope that the Minister will continue the emphasis that the One Wales Government had on developing public transport in Wales, but also on ensuring access for disabled people to public transport in Wales. Once again I see that the Minister is responding in the affirmative, and we very much welcome that also.

Yr wyf wedi ceisio peidio â gwneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol, ond mae’n rhaid i mi orffen drwy wneud pwynt sylfaenol. Mae’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer pobl anabl wedi gwaethygu ers i’r system rheilffordd gael ei phreifateiddio. Mae’n amlwg bod hynny’n mynd i barhau, gyda datganiad Philip Hammond, y Gweinidog, ei fod am weld y costau’n cael eu gosod yn uniongyrchol ar ysgwyddau pobl sy’n teithio ar drenau yn hytrach nag ar y trethdalwr. Mae’n rhaid i ni wynebu’r ffaith honno, er efallai y bydd hynny’n brofiad poenus i rai pobl yn yr adeilad hwn.

I have tried not to make political points, but I must conclude by making a fundamental point. Provision for disabled people has deteriorated since the railway system was privatised. It is clear that that will continue, with the statement from Philip Hammond, the Minister, that he wants to see those who travel on trains shouldering the costs, rather than the taxpayer. We must face that fact, although it may be a painful experience for some in this building.

Russell George: I will take out some points that I intended to make in my contribution, as many of them have already been made. A study undertaken by the Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru found that only 8 per cent of railway stations in Wales are disabled friendly. That is, just 16 out of 220 railway stations have wheelchair access to platforms, accessible toilets and wheelchair access to the train. In my constituency, a number of railway stations are inaccessible to people who are disabled, and they are pretty bad for anyone with a slight walking impediment, older people or young mums with a pram. However, it is absolutely impossible for anyone who is disabled to try to get over some railway bridges, such as that in Newtown, which can only be reached via steps, or under some bridges, such as the one in Machynlleth, which floods regularly. Even where there are stations that are deemed to have reasonable access, such as that in Welshpool, which has had ramps installed in recent years, the gradient of the ramps is so steep that they cannot be negotiated without help. One constituent who uses an electric wheelchair likened it to skiing down the Alps.

Russell George: Fe wnaf dynnu allan rhai pwyntiau yr oeddwn yn bwriadu eu gwneud yn fy nghyfraniad, gan fod llawer ohonynt eisoes wedi’u gwneud. Canfuwyd astudiaeth a gynhaliwyd gan Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru bod dim ond 8 y cant o orsafoedd rheilffordd yng Nghymru yn anabl-gyfeillgar. Hynny yw, mae gan ddim ond 16 allan o 220 o orsafoedd rheilffordd fynediad cadair olwyn i lwyfannau, toiledau hygyrch a mynediad cadair olwyn i’r trên. Yn fy etholaeth i, mae nifer o orsafoedd rheilffordd yn anhygyrch i bobl sy’n anabl, ac maent yn eithaf gwael i unrhyw un sydd â rhywfaint o rwystr cerdded, pobl hŷn neu famau ifanc gyda phram. Fodd bynnag, mae’n gwbl amhosibl i unrhyw un sy’n anabl i geisio mynd dros rhai pontydd rheilffordd, fel yr un yn y Drenewydd, y gellir ei gyrraedd dim ond trwy ddefnyddio’r grisiau, neu o dan rhai pontydd, fel yr un ym Machynlleth, lle mae llifogydd rheolaidd. Hyd yn oed ble mae gorsafoedd yr ystyrir bod ganddynt fynediad rhesymol, fel yr un yn y Trallwng, sydd wedi cael rampiau wedi’u gosod yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae graddiant y rampiau mor serth ni ellir eu negodi heb gymorth. Dywedodd un o’m hetholwyr sy’n defnyddio cadair olwyn drydan ei fod yn debyg i sgïo i lawr yr Alpau.

As politicians, we must do better on this, and upgrading our traffic infrastructure, particularly our railway stations, needs to be part of a package of measures to help disabled people lead more independent lives. We need to identify, with those organisations responsible for stations, as well as disability groups, the stations that require upgrading urgently in order to comply with disability legislation. We also need to use UK Government money to do that. The previous UK Government had a ‘Railways for All’ strategy, under which £370 million was set aside to improve access to Britain’s stations over the next 10 years, including a pot of £7 million to revamp smaller railway stations. As I understand it, only a small proportion of that money has been bid for and spent in Wales, and it will be interesting if, in his response, the Minister could tell us how much money has been spent in Wales to date and what bids are in the pipeline.

Fel gwleidyddion, rhaid inni wneud yn well ar hyn, ac mae angen i uwchraddio’n seilwaith traffig, a’n gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd yn arbennig, fod yn rhan o becyn o fesurau i helpu pobl anabl i fyw bywydau mwy annibynnol. Mae angen inni ganfod, gyda’r sefydliadau hynny sy’n gyfrifol am orsafoedd, yn ogystal â grwpiau anabledd, y gorsafoedd hynny sydd angen eu huwchraddio ar frys er mwyn cydymffurfio â deddfwriaeth anabledd. Mae angen inni hefyd defnyddio arian Llywodraeth y DU i wneud hynny. Roedd gan Lywodraeth flaenorol y DU strategaeth ‘Rheilffyrdd i Bawb’, lle neilltuwyd £370 miliwn i wella mynediad i orsafoedd Prydain dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf, gan gynnwys swm o £7 miliwn i ailwampio gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd llai o faint. Fel y deallaf, dim ond cyfran fechan o’r arian hwnnw y gwnaethpwyd cais amdano a’i gwariwyd yng Nghymru, a bydd yn ddiddorol os, yn ei ymateb, gallai’r Gweinidog ddweud wrthym faint o arian a wariwyd yng Nghymru hyd yn hyn a pha geisiadau sydd  ar y gweill.

I know that upgrading our railway stations is not easy and there are many historic factors to contend with. Many of the railway stations and bridges are fairly ancient. However, given the requirements under the Disability Discrimination Act 2005, it is important that we ensure that more money comes to Wales under this scheme to allow smaller railway stations throughout Wales to be upgraded so that people with disabilities can access the railway platforms.

Gwn nad yw uwchraddio ein gorsafoedd rheilffordd yn hawdd a bod nifer o ffactorau hanesyddol i ymdopi â nhw. Mae nifer o’r gorsafoedd rheilffordd a phontydd yn eithaf hen. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried y gofynion o dan y Ddeddf Gwahaniaethu ar Sail Anabledd 2005, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau bod mwy o arian yn dod i Gymru o dan y cynllun hwn i ganiatáu gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd llai o faint ledled Cymru i gael eu huwchraddio fel y gall pobl ag anableddau gael mynediad at y platfformau rheilffordd.

Ann Jones: I chaired the Committee on Equality of Opportunity in the last Assembly that produced the report that I believe has prompted the Conservatives to put forward this motion today. Members who sat on that committee will remember our frustration that the responsibility for the issues where change was most needed lay with others, not with the Welsh Government. However, that is not to say that the Welsh Government cannot look to make some improvements to make transport accessible to others. A key recommendation accepted by the Government last year was that it should incorporate station accessibility issues into the specification for the next round of the Wales and borders franchise. It was encouraging that the Government accepted that recommendation, but could you tell me whether you have an update on that, Minister? The principle behind this is that the train operators are responsible for accessibility and for the safety of passengers, regardless of disability. Currently, operators are failing on that front. That reality is made all the more galling when you consider the drastic fare increases that have just been announced and that have been announced over recent years.

Ann Jones: Fe wnes i gadeirio’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn y Cynulliad diwethaf a gynhyrchodd yr adroddiad y credaf wnaeth ysgogi’r Ceidwadwyr i gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn heddiw. Bydd Aelodau a oedd ar y pwyllgor hwnnw yn cofio ein rhwystredigaeth bod y cyfrifoldeb am y materion lle’r oedd mawr angen newid yn aros gydag eraill ac nid gyda Llywodraeth Cymru. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny i ddweud na all Lywodraeth Cymru edrych i wneud rhai gwelliannau i wneud trafnidiaeth yn hygyrch i eraill. Argymhelliad allweddol a dderbyniwyd gan y Llywodraeth y llynedd oedd y dylid ymgorffori materion hygyrchedd gorsafoedd yn y fanyleb ar gyfer y rownd nesaf o fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau. Yr oedd yn galonogol fod y Llywodraeth wedi derbyn yr argymhelliad hwnnw, ond a allech ddweud wrthyf a oes gennych ddiweddariad ar hynny, Weinidog? Yr egwyddor sy’n sail i hyn yw bod y gweithredwyr trenau yn gyfrifol am hygyrchedd a diogelwch teithwyr, beth bynnag fo’u hanabledd. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gweithredwyr yn methu yn hynny o beth. Mae realiti hwnnw yn fwy poenus pan rydych yn ystyried y cynnydd llym yn y prisiau sydd newydd gael eu cyhoeddi ac a gyhoeddwyd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf.

Most Members who have spoken have mentioned Rhyl railway station. Therefore, Members will forgive me for also mentioning it, as it is in my constituency. You are right that there have been issues there. Many of us can talk about people that we have met while travelling. Members from the last Assembly will no doubt recall my own knight in shining armour, Mr Darren Millar—it is the only thing I pay tribute to him for—who helped me when I had problems getting off a train. I do not regard myself as someone with a huge disability, but I had problems getting off the train. Were it not for Darren, I would still be sitting on that train, travelling back and forth between Holyhead and Cardiff and never able to get off at Rhyl.

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o Aelodau sydd wedi siarad wedi crybwyll gorsaf reilffordd y Rhyl. Felly, bydd Aelodau yn maddau imi am ei chrybwyll hefyd, gan ei bod yn fy etholaeth i. Yr ydych yn iawn fod problemau wedi bodoli yno. Gall lawer ohonom sôn am y bobl hynny yr ydym wedi cwrdd â nhw wrth deithio. Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad diwethaf yn cofio fy marchog dewr fy hun, Mr Darren Millar—dyna’r unig beth y talaf deyrnged iddo amdano— a wnaeth fy helpu pan gefais broblemau’n mynd oddi ar drên. Nid wyf yn ystyried fy hun fel rhywun sydd ag anabledd enfawr, ond cefais broblemau wrth fynd oddi ar y trên. Oni bai am Darren, byddwn yn dal i fod yn eistedd ar y trên hwnnw, yn teithio yn ôl ac ymlaen rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd a byth yn gallu mynd oddi arno yn y Rhyl.

The serious issue behind that incident was staff training. No guard came along to see why the door was still open, or to check whether anybody was in difficulty. Eventually, we did get off the train. Darren escaped unhurt; I did not fall on him with my huge weight, and he lives to tell the tale. However, people travelling alone could find themselves in a situation where they do not have a knight in shining armour. I am advocating that Darren should perhaps sit on trains across Wales, helping people on and off, rather than sit in this Chamber. [Laughter.]

Y mater difrifol a oedd yn sail i’r digwyddiad hwnnw oedd hyfforddiant staff. Ni ddaeth unrhyw gard i weld pam oedd y drws yn dal i fod ar agor, neu i wirio a oedd unrhyw un yn cael anhawster. Yn y pen draw, cawsom oddi ar y trên. Fe wnaeth Darren ddianc yn ddianaf; ni syrthiais arno ef gyda fy mhwysau enfawr, ac mae’n byw i ddweud y stori. Fodd bynnag, gallai pobl sy’n teithio ar ben eu hunain ganfod eu hunain mewn sefyllfa lle nad oes ganddynt farchog dewr. Yr wyf yn argymell y dylai Darren efallai eistedd ar drenau ledled Cymru, yn helpu pobl arnynt ac oddi arnynt, yn hytrach nag eistedd yn y Siambr hon. [Chwerthin.]

It is encouraging to see that the Welsh Government’s national transport plan seeks to involve disabled people in shaping services. More could be done to promote that. As has been said, many stations are very unfriendly to people with a disability. However, we then got involved in grandfather rights, and then we discussed whether as the Committee on Equality of Opportunity we should be talking about grandmother rights or grandparent rights. The whole issue was very frustrating. We knew that we wanted to change the way in which people can travel, but often it was not within our power.

Mae’n galonogol gweld bod cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol Llywodraeth Cymru yn ceisio cynnwys pobl anabl wrth lunio gwasanaethau. Gellid gwneud mwy i hyrwyddo hynny. Fel y dywedwyd, mae nifer o orsafoedd yn anghyfeillgar iawn tuag at bobl ag anabledd. Fodd bynnag, aethom wedyn i mewn i hawliau taid, ac yna trafodwyd p’un a ddylem, fel y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, fod yn siarad am hawliau nain neu hawliau teidiau a neiniau. Roedd y mater cyfan yn rhwystredig iawn. Gwyddem fod arnom eisiau newid y ffordd y gall pobl deithio, ond yn aml nid oedd o fewn ein pŵer.

The Government has introduced a Wales station improvement plan plus and has put a lot of money into doing stations up. However, you can be damned if you do and damned if you do not. I refer you to another railway station in my constituency, Prestatyn. Work on access for disabled people is now being done there, but people are contacting me to say that they do not like it. They say that it is not right, they do not like the colour, they do not like where the ramp is placed. They are missing the most important point, which is consideration of disabilities. There is a lot of work to be done in society to ensure that people are aware of why work is being carried out.

Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi cyflwyno cynllun gwella gorsafoedd Cymru a mwy ac mae wedi cyfrannu llawer o arian tuag at ailwampio gorsafoedd. Fodd bynnag, nid oes ennill. Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at orsaf reilffordd arall yn fy etholaeth, Prestatyn. Mae gwaith ar fynediad i bobl anabl bellach yn cael ei wneud yno, ond mae pobl yn cysylltu â mi i ddweud nad ydynt yn ei hoffi. Maent yn dweud nad yw’n iawn, nad ydynt yn hoffi’r lliw, ac nad ydynt yn hoffi’r lle rhoddir y ramp. Maent yn methu’r pwynt pwysicaf, sef ystyriaeth o anableddau. Mae llawer o waith i’w wneud mewn cymdeithas i sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o pam y mae gwaith yn cael ei wneud.

Improvements have already been made, but there is a lot more that we can do. Members have referred to Swansea, which is a good example of disability groups, accessibility groups, and others working together. That is the way forward. We must engage with people. We cannot keep telling people that we know what is right. I know what I want when I get on a train; I want to know that I can travel safely to my destination, and get off the train when I get there without inconveniencing too many people. That is not a lot to ask in this world. However, we must take everyone with us when we do this work. The rail companies must take some responsibility for this: stopping increasing their prices until they have ensured accessibility for all would be one way forward, but, unfortunately, we do not have the power to ensure that.

Mae gwelliannau wedi’u gwneud eisoes, ond mae llawer mwy y gallwn ei wneud. Mae Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at Abertawe, sydd yn enghraifft dda o grwpiau anabledd, grwpiau hygyrchedd, ac eraill yn cydweithio. Dyna’r ffordd ymlaen. Rhaid inni gysylltu â phobl. Ni allwn barhau i ddweud wrth bobl ein bod yn gwybod beth sy’n iawn. Gwn beth rwyf eisiau pan af ar drên; yr wyf am wybod y gallaf deithio’n ddiogel i fy nghyrchfannau, a gallaf fynd oddi ar y trên pan gaf yno heb achosi anghyfleustra i ormod o bobl. Nid yw hynny’n llawer i’w ofyn yn y byd hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid inni gymryd pawb gyda ni pan fyddwn ni’n gwneud y gwaith hwn. Rhaid i’r cwmnïau rheilffyrdd gymryd rhywfaint o gyfrifoldeb am hyn: byddai atal cynyddu eu prisiau hyd nes y maent wedi sicrhau hygyrchedd i bawb yn un ffordd ymlaen, ond, yn anffodus, nid oes gennym y pŵer i sicrhau hynny.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Did I hear you move an amendment that Darren Millar should be on a train, or was it just a passing comment? [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A wnes i’ch clywed yn cynnig gwelliant y dylai Darren Millar fod ar drên, neu ai sylw yn unig oedd hwnnw? [Chwerthin.]

Ann Jones: I would be happy to move an amendment that he remains on a train for the next five years. [Laughter.]

Ann Jones: Byddwn yn hapus i gynnig gwelliant ei fod yn aros ar drên am y pum mlynedd nesaf. [Chwerthin.]

Mark Isherwood: I will not comment on that, except to say that Darren is always exemplary company on the train, as are you, Ann, on the few occasions that I have enjoyed the journey with you. I spoke at the launch of the Action on Hearing Loss ‘Open to All?’ report last year, which identified the barriers facing people who are deaf or hard of hearing in Wales. The research highlighted the difficulties that people with hearing loss face when using public transport. Almost two thirds of respondents said that being deaf or hard of hearing makes it harder to use public transport and that a lack of deaf awareness is the main barrier. Participants identified trains as being the most difficult mode of public transport to use. Over a quarter of respondents said that it is difficult to find information before travelling by train, and 42 per cent said that it is difficult during the journey. Nearly two thirds of respondents who use British Sign Language or Sign Supported English said that it is difficult to find information before the journey and nearly three quarters of respondents said that it is difficult during the journey. Participants raised the need for real-time visual information displays in trains and railway stations and deaf awareness training for front-line staff.

Mark Isherwood: Ni wnaf sylwadau ar hynny, dim ond i ddweud bod Darren bob amser yn gwmni rhagorol ar y trên, fel yr ydych chi, Ann, ar yr achlysuron prin yr wyf wedi mwynhau’r daith gyda chi. Siaradais yn lansiad adroddiad Action on Hearing Loss, ‘Open to All?’ y llynedd, a nododd y rhwystrau sy’n wynebu pobl sy’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yng Nghymru. Tynnodd yr ymchwil sylw at yr anawsterau sy’n wynebu pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw wrth ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Dywedodd bron i ddau draean o’r ymatebwyr fod bod yn fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yn ei gwneud hi’n anoddach i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus ac mai diffyg ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod yw’r prif rwystr. Nododd y cyfranogwyr mai trenau oedd y modd mwyaf anodd o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus i ddefnyddio. Dywedodd dros chwarter o’r ymatebwyr ei bod yn anodd dod o hyd i wybodaeth cyn teithio ar drên, a dywedodd 42 y cant ei bod yn anodd yn ystod y daith. Dywedodd bron i ddau draean o’r ymatebwyr sy’n defnyddio Iaith Arwyddion Prydain neu Saesneg a gefnogir gan arwyddo ei bod yn anodd dod o hyd i wybodaeth cyn y daith a dywedodd bron i dri chwarter o’r ymatebwyr ei bod yn anodd yn ystod y daith. Cododd cyfranogwyr yr angen am arddangosfeydd gwybodaeth weledol amser real mewn trenau a gorsafoedd rheilffordd, a hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod ar gyfer staff rheng flaen.

Nearly one in five respondents said that it is difficult to find information before travelling by bus or coach, and nearly three in 10 said that it is difficult to get information during the journey. Younger participants, in particular, identified a lack of deaf awareness among bus drivers and stated that their resulting attitudes towards passengers who are deaf or hard of hearing is a barrier. Buses on main routes have started using visual signs but this tends to be restricted to the main cities and towns and should be rolled out to other urban and rural areas. One fifth of respondents said that it is difficult to find information before travelling by taxi or mini cab, while over a quarter said that it is difficult to get information during the journey.

Dywedodd bron i un mewn pump o ymatebwyr ei bod yn anodd dod o hyd i wybodaeth cyn teithio ar fws neu goets, a dywedodd bron i dri o bob 10 ei bod yn anodd cael gwybodaeth yn ystod y daith. Nododd gyfranogwyr iau, yn benodol, ddiffyg ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod ymhlith gyrwyr bysiau ac fe wnaethant ddatgan bod eu hagweddau, yn deillio o hynny, tuag at deithwyr sy’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yn rhwystr. Mae bysiau ar brif lwybrau wedi dechrau defnyddio arwyddion gweledol ond mae hyn yn tueddu i fod yn gyfyngedig i brif ddinasoedd a threfi a dylid ei gyflwyno i ardaloedd trefol a gwledig eraill. Dywedodd un o bob pump o ymatebwyr ei bod yn anodd dod o hyd i wybodaeth cyn teithio mewn tacsi neu gab mini, tra dywedodd dros chwarter ei bod yn anodd cael gwybodaeth yn ystod y daith.

Action on Hearing Loss has been working with other partners on guidance for public transport operators. It is hoped that the Welsh Government will be issuing that soon—and I hope that the Minister will tell us more about that later on. Its key focus has been on the need for public-facing staff to be given deaf awareness training and the need for all information systems to be accessible, but particularly live travel information: transport operators tend to use tannoy announcements for train changes, platform announcements and so on. As a standard, this should be provided by audio and visual means that meet the needs of people with hearing and sight loss. We have heard references to the Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru: it has advised that although previous Welsh Governments have invested in new train routes, added additional track on certain lines, widened platforms and, in 2003, invested over £2 million in improving a number of railway stations in south and mid Wales, none of that investment was targeted at improving access. Although the Railways Act 2005 gave the Welsh Government specific responsibilities that apply to all rail users, including disabled people, MS Society research has found, as we heard from Rhodri Glyn, that only 8 per cent of railway stations in Wales are completely disabled friendly—that is, 16 out of 222 have wheelchair access to the platform, accessible toilets and wheelchair access to the train. That means that 206 do not.

Mae Action on Hearing Loss wedi bod yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid eraill ar ganllawiau ar gyfer gweithredwyr trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Y gobaith yw y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyhoeddi hynny cyn bo hir—a gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn dweud mwy wrthym am hynny yn ddiweddarach. Bu ei ffocws allweddol ar yr angen i staff sy’n delio â’r cyhoedd gael hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod, a’r angen am yr holl systemau gwybodaeth i fod yn hygyrch, ond yn enwedig y wybodaeth deithio byw: mae gweithredwyr cludiant yn tueddu i ddefnyddio cyhoeddiadau uchelseinydd ar gyfer newidiadau trên, cyhoeddiadau platfform ac ati. Fel rheol, dylid darparu hyn drwy ddulliau gweledol a chlywedol sy’n diwallu anghenion pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw a golwg. Yr ydym wedi clywed cyfeiriadau at Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru a wnaeth gynghori, er bod Llywodraethau blaenorol Cymru wedi buddsoddi mewn llwybrau trên newydd, rhoi trac ychwanegol ar rai llinellau, wedi lledu platfformau ac, yn 2003, wedi buddsoddi dros £2 filiwn i wella nifer o orsafoedd rheilffordd yn y de a’r canolbarth, nid oedd un o’r buddsoddiadau hynny wedi’u targedu at wella mynediad. Er y gwnaeth y Ddeddf Rheilffyrdd 2005 roi cyfrifoldebau penodol i Lywodraeth Cymru sy’n berthnasol i holl ddefnyddwyr y rheilffyrdd, gan gynnwys pobl anabl, canfu ymchwil y gymdeithas sglerosis ymledol, fel rydym wedi clywed gan Rhodri Glyn, bod dim ond 8 y cant o orsafoedd rheilffordd yng Nghymru yn gwbl anabl gyfeillgar—hynny yw, mae gan 16 o 222 mynediad cadair olwyn i’r llwyfan, toiledau hygyrch a mynediad cadair olwyn i’r trên. Mae hynny’n golygu nad oes gan 206 ohonynt.

Disabled athlete and former Wrexham Sports Personality of the year, Gareth Stafford, travels out from Chirk station, but cannot return there as the accessible platform is on the other side of the track on the return journey. In fact, Clwyd South was identified by MS Society Cymru as one of the worst constituencies for disabled access, with stations being unmanned or lacking disabled access to the platform. The 2006 UK Government document, ‘Railways for All: The Accessibility Strategy for Great Britain’s Railways’, announced spending on access to railways stations, as we heard from Russell George earlier. Wales is mentioned and up to £7 million a year was allocated for smaller stations across the UK. If the £7 million a year investment had been allocated according to population or the Barnett Formula, at least £1 million would have been spent on Welsh railways stations over three years. However, a Research Service inquiry revealed that only £403,000 had been spent in Wales. This did fund improvements to stations, including Wrexham Central and Prestatyn stations, and I also welcome news that disabled access to platform 4 at Wrexham General will be completed by the end of the year. However, as this month’s Equality and Human Rights Commission report, ‘Hidden in Plain Sight’, states,

Mae athletwr anabl a chyn personoliaeth chwaraeon y flwyddyn Wrecsam, Gareth Stafford, yn teithio allan o orsaf y Waun, ond ni all ddychwelyd yno gan fod y platfform hygyrch ar ochr arall y trac ar y daith yn ôl. Yn wir, nodwyd De Clwyd gan gymdeithas sglerosis ymledol Cymru fel un o’r etholaethau gwaethaf ar gyfer mynediad i’r anabl, gyda gorsafoedd sydd heb staff neu ddiffyg mynediad i’r anabl i’r llwyfan. Fe wnaeth ddogfen Llywodraeth y DU 2006, ‘Railways for All: The Accessibility Strategy for Great Britain’s Railways’ gyhoeddi gwariant ar fynediad i orsafoedd rheilffyrdd, fel y clywsom gan Russell George yn gynharach. Sonnir am Gymru a dyrannwyd hyd at £7 miliwn y flwyddyn ar gyfer gorsafoedd llai o faint ledled y DU. Os yw’r buddsoddiad o £7 miliwn y flwyddyn wedi’i ddyrannu yn ôl poblogaeth neu’r fformiwla Barnett, byddai o leiaf £1 miliwn wedi’i wario ar orsafoedd rheilffyrdd Cymru dros dair blynedd. Fodd bynnag, datgelodd ymchwiliad y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil mai dim ond £403,000 oedd wedi’i wario yng Nghymru. Fe wnaeth hwn ariannu gwelliannau i orsafoedd, gan gynnwys gorsafoedd Wrecsam Canolog a Phrestatyn, a chroesawaf hefyd newyddion y caiff mynediad i’r anabl i lwyfan 4 yn Wrecsam Cyffredinol ei gwblhau erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, fel y mae adroddiad y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol, ‘Hidden in Plain Sight’, yn datgan y mis hwn,

‘Disabled people told us travelling on public transport is a ‘hot spot’ where incidents of verbal and physical abuse from other travellers are commonplace. Sometimes the abuse came from staff.’

Mae pobl anabl wedi dweud wrthym fod teithio ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn ‘fan poeth’ lle mae achosion o gam-drin geiriol a chorfforol o deithwyr eraill yn gyffredin. Weithiau daeth y cam-drin gan staff.

As they told the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee this morning, we really need people at the top of Government and public services to take leadership, listening to the experts and disabled people themselves.

Fel y dywedasant wrth y Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol y bore yma, mae gwir angen arnom bobl ar frig Llywodraeth a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i roi arweiniad, gan wrando ar yr arbenigwyr a phobl anabl eu hunain.

3.45 p.m.

Keith Davies: Nid wyf am ddweud llawer oherwydd y mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r hyn yr oeddwn am ei ddweud eisoes wedi cael ei drafod. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd un peth yn fy rhyfeddu: yng ngorsaf Llanelli, gofynnais i Arriva Trains Wales wella’r safle ond dywedwyd wrthyf mai Network Rail sy’n gyfrifol am y rhan fwyaf o orsafoedd rheilffyrdd Cymru, sydd yn atebol yn ei dro i’r Llywodraeth yn Lloegr. Felly, os ydym am wella gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd, mae’n rhaid inni roi rhagor o bwysau ar y Llywodraeth yn Llundain. Gan mai’r Ceidwadwyr sydd wedi cyflwyno’r cynnig, mae’n ddyledus arnynt wasgu ar y Llywodraeth yn Llundain.

Keith Davies: I am not going to say much as most of what I wanted to say has already been discussed. However, one thing astonished me: in Llanelli station, I asked Arriva Trains Wales about improving the site, but was told that Network Rail is responsible for the majority of Wales’s railway stations, and that it in turn is answerable to the Government in England. So, if we want improved railway stations, we will have to increase the pressure on the Government in London. As it is the Conservatives who have moved this motion, the onus is on them to press the Government in London.

Mick Antoniw: I find myself in a strange position as a lawyer of saying that most of what I wanted to say has already been said—there is very little to add. I give my warmest support to the whole thrust of the resolution.

Mick Antoniw: Caf fy hun mewn sefyllfa ryfedd fel cyfreithiwr o ddweud bod y rhan fwyaf o’r hyn yr oeddwn am ei ddweud eisoes wedi’i ddweud—ychydig iawn sydd i’w ychwanegu. Rhoddaf fy nghefnogaeth wresog i holl fyrdwn y penderfyniad.

The Presiding Officer: Wow, thank you. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Waw, diolch. [Chwerthin.]

The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): I certainly was not expecting such brevity, Llywydd.

Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Yn sicr, nid oeddwn i’n disgwyl byrdra o’r fath, Lywydd.

I will start by thanking Members for a thoughtful debate and for taking the motion in the spirit in which it was intended to spark debate. However, there are issues that I need to allude to with regard to the technical aspect. Therefore, I will not be able to support the motion, purely on a technical basis. However, I am sympathetic to all the details that have been presented today.

Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i’r Aelodau am ddadl feddylgar ac am gymryd y cynnig yn yr ysbryd y bwriadwyd i sbarduno dadl. Fodd bynnag, mae materion y mae angen imi gyfeirio atynt o ran yr agwedd dechnegol. Felly, ni fyddaf yn gallu cefnogi’r cynnig, ar sail dechnegol yn unig. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn cydymdeimlo â’r holl fanylion sydd wedi eu cyflwyno heddiw.

Let us be clear about a point that the Member for Llanelli raised. The Welsh Government is fully committed to our equalities agenda. We have a proud record of providing facilities for disabled people so that they can lead a full and active life. However, as mentioned today, we have difficulties in the financial settlement we find ourselves with, and must therefore try to manage to the best of our ability with the funding that we have.

Gadewch inni fod yn glir ynghylch y pwynt a godwyd gan yr Aelod dros Lanelli. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn hollol ymrwymedig i’n hagenda cydraddoldebau. Mae gennym hanes balch o ddarparu cyfleusterau i bobl anabl fel y gallant fyw bywyd llawn a gweithgar. Fodd bynnag, fel y crybwyllwyd heddiw, mae gennym anawsterau yn y setliad ariannol sydd o’m blaenau, ac felly mae’n rhaid i ni geisio ymdopi hyd eithaf ein gallu gyda’r cyllid sydd gennym.

Mark mentioned the Railways Act 2005. I will just pick out some of the detail. We do not have the powers to force Network Rail to make the 221 stations it owns in Wales fully accessible. As has been quite rightly brought to your attention today, the power lies with Philip Hammond in London. As much as you have lobbied me on this issue today, perhaps we need collectively to lobby the Westminster Government to recognise this.

Soniodd Mark am Ddeddf Rheilffyrdd 2005. Fe wnaf ddewis rhai o’r manylion. Nid oes gennym y pwerau i orfodi Network Rail i wneud y 221 o orsafoedd y mae’n berchen arnynt yng Nghymru yn gwbl hygyrch. Fel sy’n gwbl briodol, tynnwyd eich sylw heddiw at y ffaith bod y pŵer yn nwylo Philip Hammond yn Llundain. Cymaint yr ydych wedi fy lobïo ar y mater hwn heddiw, efallai fod angen inni lobïo ar y cyd Llywodraeth San Steffan i gydnabod hyn.

When we are involved in redeveloping a station, we insist in the integral part of the development that it is improved for the accessibility for disabled people. Indeed, Swansea station is being funded under the Wales station improvement programme and it is well advanced. The station was designed following extensive engagement with local service users, including representatives from disabled groups. Nevertheless, I am concerned that where improvements are ongoing, they do not comply with accessibility requirements for some disabled groups. I would invite Members to write to me if they have evidence of this. Therefore, I support the Liberal Democrats’ amendment, but I will not support the amended motion at the end.

Pan fyddwn yn cymryd rhan mewn ailddatblygu gorsaf, mynnwn yn rhan annatod y datblygiad bod gwelliannau’n cael eu gwneud ar gyfer hygyrchedd i bobl anabl. Yn wir, mae gorsaf Abertawe yn cael ei hariannu o dan raglen gwella gorsafoedd Cymru ac mae’n mynd rhagddo’n dda. Cynlluniwyd yr orsaf yn dilyn ymgysylltu helaeth â defnyddwyr gwasanaeth lleol, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr o grwpiau anabl. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn bryderus, lle mae gwelliannau’n mynd rhagddynt, nad ydynt yn cydymffurfio â gofynion hygyrchedd ar gyfer rhai grwpiau anabl. Byddwn yn gwahodd Aelodau i ysgrifennu ataf os oes ganddynt dystiolaeth o hyn. Felly, cefnogaf welliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ond ni chefnogaf y cynnig diwygiedig ar y diwedd.

The Wales station improvement programme grant scheme remains open for business—Russell George mentioned this earlier. Recently, a major scheme of improvement for accessibility was announced at the Llandudno station in the summer, and I know that the Member is grateful for that funding. Another pending application will see improved access at rural stations where the step-in height is a problem—many Members have brought this problem to my attention today.

Mae cynllun grant rhaglen gwella gorsafoedd Cymru yn parhau i fod ar agor i fusnes—soniodd Russell George am hyn yn gynharach. Yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddwyd cynllun mawr o welliant ar gyfer hygyrchedd yng ngorsaf Llandudno yn ystod yr haf, a gwn fod yr Aelod yn ddiolchgar am y cyllid hwnnw. Bydd cais arall sydd i ddod yn gweld gwell mynediad mewn gorsafoedd gwledig lle mae’r uchder camu i mewn yn broblem—mae sawl Aelod wedi dwyn y broblem hon i’m sylw heddiw.

The Welsh Government works closely with the Department for Transport to secure UK Government funding, particularly on the Access for All programme. The national programme will deliver major improvements in footbridge access, for example at Prestatyn—as the Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned earlier—and at the Abergavenny, Bridgend, Wrexham General, Neath, Severn Tunnel Junction stations. We were pleased to see the footbridge being placed at Wrexham General station on 15 September. Therefore, we are doing many things within our responsibility. Clearly, there is more to be done with regard to station improvements, but pressure must be targeted in the right direction.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r Adran Drafnidiaeth i sicrhau arian Llywodraeth y DU, yn enwedig ar y rhaglen Mynediad i Bawb. Bydd y rhaglen genedlaethol yn sicrhau gwelliannau mawr mewn mynediad ar droed, er enghraifft ym Mhrestatyn—fel y soniodd yr Aelod dros Ddyffryn Clwyd yn gynharach—ac yng ngorsafoedd y Fenni, Penybont-ar-Ogwr, Wrecsam Cyffredinol, Castell-nedd a Chyffordd Twnnel Hafren. Yr oeddem yn falch o weld y bont droed yn cael ei roi yng ngorsaf Wrecsam Cyffredinol ar 15 Medi. Felly, yr ydym yn gwneud llawer o bethau o fewn ein cyfrifoldeb. Yn amlwg, mae mwy i’w wneud o ran gwella gorsafoedd, ond rhaid targedu pwysau yn y cyfeiriad cywir.

I thank Oscar for his continued lobbying to improve accessibility on public transport by the use of audio-visual information, as mentioned in the second point of the motion. I would also remind Members that the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000, which govern the accessibility of local buses, are again the responsibility of the UK Government.

Diolchaf i Oscar am ei lobïo parhaus i wella hygyrchedd ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus gyda’r defnydd o wybodaeth clyweledol, fel y soniwyd yn ail bwynt y cynnig. Byddaf hefyd yn atgoffa Aelodau mai cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth y DU, unwaith eto, yw’r Rheoliadau Hygyrchedd Cerbydau Gwasanaeth Cyhoeddus 2000, sy’n llywodraethu hygyrchedd bysiau lleol.

Darren Millar: I appreciate that some of the areas of regulatory responsibility lie with Westminster, but, for the public sector in Wales, the terms and conditions of contracts are another good way of securing improvements in accessibility. Is that not something that could be promoted by the Welsh Government at all levels?

Darren Millar: Yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod gan San Steffan gyfrifoldeb dros rai o’r meysydd rheoleiddiol, ond, i’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, mae telerau ac amodau contractau yn ffordd dda arall o sicrhau gwelliannau mewn hygyrchedd. Onid yw hynny’n rhywbeth y gellid ei hyrwyddo gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar bob lefel?

Carl Sargeant: You are absolutely right, and where it is in our regulatory control, or where we have powers or levers to influence sectors, then we will do that. I will explain some of the things that the Welsh Government is doing in areas that are not devolved. You mentioned Welsh Labour’s commitment to improve accessibility, and we are delivering on that. The Welsh Government is providing £2 million for a fleet of 12 new low-floor, fully accessible vehicles on the TrawsCymru service through Aberystwyth, Carmarthen, Newtown and Merthyr, and those vehicles will provide audio-visual announcements for passengers and additional space for wheelchairs and guide dogs. We are moving in that direction, although never at the pace that we would like to deliver these things, purely because of finance.

Carl Sargeant: Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle, a lle mae gennym reolaeth rheoleiddio, neu lle mae gennym bwerau neu ysgogiadau i ddylanwadu ar sectorau, yna byddwn yn gwneud hynny. Byddaf yn egluro rhai o’r pethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud mewn meysydd sydd heb eu datganoli. Soniasoch am ymrwymiad Llafur Cymru i wella hygyrchedd, ac yr ydym yn cyflawni hynny. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn darparu £2 miliwn ar gyfer fflyd o 12 o gerbydau llawr isel gwbl hygyrch newydd  ar y gwasanaeth TrawsCymru drwy Aberystwyth, Caerfyrddin, y Drenewydd a Merthyr, a bydd y cerbydau hynny yn darparu cyhoeddiadau clyweledol ar gyfer teithwyr a lle ychwanegol ar gyfer cadeiriau olwyn a chŵn tywys. Yr ydym yn symud i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw, er byth ar y cyflymdra y byddem yn hoffi i gyflawni’r pethau hyn, ar sail cyllid yn unig.

I would also like to draw attention to the concessionary fares scheme administered by local authorities, which already allows a companion to travel on the free bus scheme. I accept and acknowledge the difficulty where someone might require additional carers to travel with them. As the First Minister said, I am working with local authorities to explore the extension of that scheme, but it requires some detailed work on defining eligibility.

Hoffwn hefyd dynnu sylw at y cynllun tocynnau teithio rhatach sy’n cael ei weinyddu gan awdurdodau lleol, sydd eisoes yn caniatáu cydymaith i deithio ar y cynllun bws am ddim. Rwy’n derbyn ac yn cydnabod yr anhawster lle, efallai, y bydd angen ar rywun gofalwyr ychwanegol i deithio gyda hwy. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, yr wyf yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol i ystyried ymestyn y cynllun hwnnw, ond mae angen rhywfaint o waith manwl ar ddiffinio cymhwysedd.

Rhodri Glyn referred to staff awareness, and we are promoting that. We are keen that, where the Welsh Government places a contract for business, we ensure that training standards are adhered to, and that is something that we would like to develop further. However, again, training standards in public transport is an issue that rests with the UK Government. Ann Jones mentioned public transport operators, and again, that has not been devolved.

Cyfeiriodd Rhodri Glyn at ymwybyddiaeth staff, ac yr ydym yn hyrwyddo hynny. Rydym yn awyddus, lle mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gosod contract ar gyfer busnes, ein bod yn sicrhau y glynir wrth safonau hyfforddiant, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth y byddem yn hoffi datblygu ymhellach. Fodd bynnag, unwaith eto, mae safonau hyfforddiant mewn trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn fater sydd yn nwylo’r Llywodraeth y DU. Soniodd Ann Jones am weithredwyr trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, ac eto, nid yw hynny wedi’i ddatganoli.

In short, I am sympathetic to the motion—

Yn fyr, yr wyf yn gefnogol o’r cynnig—

Ann Jones: The key recommendation in the report of the previous Committee on Equality of Opportunity was that the Minister for transport, whoever they may be—it turns out that it is you, which I am pleased about—should do some work on the next Wales and the borders franchise. Do you have an update on that? Can you provide us with any information? Do we need to lobby anyone?

Ann Jones: Argymhelliad allweddol yn adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal blaenorol oedd y dylai’r Gweinidog dros drafnidiaeth, pwy bynnag fyddant—mae’n debyg mai chi yw ef, ac yr wyf yn falch am hynny—gwneud rhywfaint o waith ar y fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau nesaf. A oes gennych ddiweddariad ar hynny? A allwch chi ddarparu unrhyw wybodaeth i ni? A oes angen arnom lobïo unrhyw un?

Carl Sargeant: I have already got my team working on the new franchise that will be in place for 2018. If we are to go out to a new franchise, then we need to start framing that now. I will ask my team to engage with disability groups on the important issues of access, rolling stock and so on, so that we can get the best for Wales and our public transport service. It is not just trains—the integrated approach to transport is important in developing a transport system that is fit for purpose for the people of Wales.

Carl Sargeant: Mae gennyf eisoes fy nhîm sy’n gweithio ar y fasnachfraint newydd a fydd ar waith ar gyfer 2018. Os ydym i fynd allan i fasnachfraint newydd, yna mae angen inni ddechrau llunio hynny bellach. Gofynnaf i’m tîm i ymgysylltu â grwpiau anabledd ar faterion pwysig o ran mynediad, cerbydau ac ati, fel y cawn y gorau ar gyfer Cymru a’n gwasanaeth trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Nid trenau yn unig ydyw—mae’r dull trafnidiaeth integredig yn bwysig wrth ddatblygu system drafnidiaeth sy’n addas i’r diben ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

In short, improved rights for the disabled are important, and we need to direct this at the level of Government that has the powers and responsibilities to enforce a change. Despite our limited powers and responsibilities in this area, we do a great deal and will continue to do so. However, I would ask colleagues across the Chamber to recognise where some of the legislative responsibility lies, and lobby the appropriate people at Westminster.

Yn fyr, mae gwell hawliau i bobl anabl yn bwysig, ac mae angen inni dargedu hyn ar lefel Llywodraeth sydd â’r pwerau a chyfrifoldebau i orfodi newid. Er gwaethaf ein pwerau a chyfrifoldebau cyfyngedig yn y maes hwn, rydym yn gwneud llawer iawn a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf fy nghydweithwyr ar draws y Siambr i gydnabod gyda phwy mae peth o’r cyfrifoldeb deddfwriaethol, a lobïo’r bobl briodol yn San Steffan.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate this afternoon, and I thank the Minister for his response to the debate. I am disappointed that he is unable to accept the motion, and I am a little bemused as to why that is the case. The motion was constructed to encourage consensus across the Chamber, to improve our chances when lobbying on issues where the relevant powers reside elsewhere, and to help you make those representations.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolchaf i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl y prynhawn yma, a diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei ymateb i’r ddadl. Yr wyf yn siomedig nad yw’n gallu derbyn y cynnig, ac nid wyf yn deall y rheswm am hyn. Cynlluniwyd y cynnig i annog consensws ar draws y Siambr, i wella ein cyfleoedd wrth lobïo ar faterion lle gorwedd y pwerau perthnasol mewn mannau eraill, ac i helpu i wneud y sylwadau hynny.

The fact that railway stations are not fully accessible was noted by the committee’s report, as well as making public transport more accessible, which is surely an aspiration that we would all sign up to, along with extending the companion bus pass and promoting training among staff on disabled passengers’ requirements. I did not hear the Minister do so, but I am happy to give some of my time to the Minister, if he so wishes, to explain to me and to other Members the specific technical reservations that he has with this motion. As I said, this motion was not constructed to be a political motion, as my colleague Byron Davies said in opening the debate, but to enhance the work undertaken by the Committee on Equality of Opportunity in the previous Assembly, under the chairmanship of Ann Jones. It is opportune at this juncture that we consider that work, because it is virtually 12 months since the first report of two came forward. I see that the Minister wishes to intervene, and I am happy to allow it.

Nodwyd y ffaith nad yw gorsafoedd rheilffordd yn gwbl hygyrch gan adroddiad y pwyllgor, yn ogystal â gwneud trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn fwy hygyrch, sy’n sicr yn ddyhead y byddwn oll yn ymrwymo iddo, ynghyd ag ymestyn y pas bws cydymaith a hyrwyddo hyfforddiant ymhlith staff ar ofynion teithwyr anabl. Ni chlywais y Gweinidog yn gwneud felly, ond yr wyf yn hapus i roi ychydig o’n hamser i’r Gweinidog, os yw’n dymuno, i egluro i mi ac i Aelodau eraill yr amheuon technegol penodol sydd ganddo ynghylch y cynnig hwn. Fel y dywedais, ni chafodd y cynnig hwn ei gynllunio i fod yn gynnig gwleidyddol, fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod Byron Davies wrth agor y ddadl, ond i wella’r gwaith a wnaed gan y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn y Cynulliad blaenorol, o dan gadeiryddiaeth Ann Jones. Mae’n amserol ar hyn o bryd ein bod yn ystyried y gwaith hwnnw, oherwydd mae’n bron 12 mis ers i’r adroddiad cyntaf o ddau ddod gerbron. Gwelaf fod y Gweinidog yn dymuno ymyrryd, ac yr wyf yn hapus i’w ganiatáu.

Carl Sargeant: I thank the Member for allowing me to speak. I hope that I made clear in my contribution that I am in general agreement with Members across the Chamber. I note what the motion calls on the Welsh Government to do, but, as I said earlier, a lot of the regulation in this matter does not sit with the Welsh Government, and therefore you are asking me to preside over something that is not my responsibility. This is the responsibility of the UK administration, and that is purely the technical basis why I cannot accept the motion. If it was our responsibility, then I would welcome this motion and support it. However, most of the regulation on these matters lies with the Westminster Government.

Carl Sargeant: Diolch i’r Aelod am ganiatáu imi siarad. Gobeithiaf y gwneuthum yn glir yn fy nghyfraniad fy mod yn cytuno, yn gyffredinol, gydag Aelodau ar draws y Siambr. Nodaf yr hyn y mae’r cynnig yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud, ond, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, nid yw llawer o’r rheoleiddio yn y mater hwn yn eistedd gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, ac felly yr ydych yn gofyn imi i lywyddu rhywbeth nad yw fy nghyfrifoldeb. Cyfrifoldeb y weinyddiaeth yn y DU yw hyn, ac ar y sail dechnegol honno’n unig, ni allaf dderbyn y cynnig. Pe bai ein cyfrifoldeb ni ydoedd, yna byddwn i’n croesawu’r cynnig hwn ac yn ei gefnogi. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r rheoleiddio ar y materion hyn yn gorwedd gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I will take you at your word, Minister, but I believe that what you say is somewhat tenuous, because you could say that in any field. There is considerable scope for the Welsh Government here, but I do not want this debate to degenerate into argy-bargy across the Chamber.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Fe wnaf dderbyn eich gair, Weinidog, ond credaf fod yr hyn a ddywedwch yn amheus braidd, oherwydd gallech ddweud hynny mewn unrhyw faes. Mae cryn gyfle i Lywodraeth Cymru yma, ond nid wyf am i’r ddadl hon ddirywio i falu awyr ar draws y Siambr.

Ann Jones: I thank the leader of the Tory party for giving way. I said at the beginning of my contribution that Members who sat on the Committee on Equality of Opportunity shared the frustration that these matters were outside of our competency, as did the then Minister for transport, Ieuan Wyn Jones, and I remember us getting into a huge argument about grandparents’ rights. However, the current Minister for transport has been very accepting of the recommendations in that report. Should we not be working through that report to ensure that we achieve those recommendations and then have your motion later on?

Ann Jones: Diolchaf i arweinydd y Blaid Dorïaidd am ildio. Dywedais ar ddechrau fy nghyfraniad fod yr Aelodau a oedd yn eistedd ar y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn rhannu’r rhwystredigaeth nad oedd y materion hyn o fewn ein cymhwysedd, fel y gwnaeth y Gweinidog dros drafnidiaeth ar y pryd, Ieuan Wyn Jones, ac yr wyf yn cofio inni gael dadl fawr am hawliau teidiau a neiniau. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Gweinidog presennol dros drafnidiaeth wedi derbyn yr argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwnnw. Oni ddylem ni fod yn gweithio trwy’r adroddiad hwnnw i sicrhau ein bod yn cyflawni’r argymhellion hynny ac yna cael eich cynnig chi yn nes ymlaen?

Andrew R.T. Davies: I take your points on board, and I had hoped that the Minister, in his address today, would touch on some of these points, in particular on the use of the public transport users committee that was to be set up and perhaps on the progress that that committee had made. In addition, the Minister did not refer in his remarks to the sector skills councils with regard to training, and it would have been helpful in gaining more understanding of some of the recommendations. However, I accept the sentiment with which the Minister has spoken this afternoon.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Derbyniaf eich pwyntiau, ac yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai’r Gweinidog, yn ei anerchiad heddiw, yn cyffwrdd ar rai o’r pwyntiau hyn, yn enwedig ar y defnydd o’r pwyllgor defnyddwyr trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus a oedd i’w sefydlu, ac efallai ar y cynnydd a wnaed gan y pwyllgor hwnnw. Yn ogystal, ni chyfeiriodd y Gweinidog yn ei sylwadau at y cynghorau sgiliau sector o ran hyfforddiant, a byddai wedi bod o gymorth i gael mwy o ddealltwriaeth o rai o’r argymhellion. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf deimlad y Gweinidog wrth siarad y prynhawn yma.

I thank everyone who has spoken today. There were some very pertinent contributions, in particular from Rebecca Evans, who touched on the unseen disabilities that many people suffer and the issues that they face. That focused many Members’ minds, in particular with regard to the security issues that people face at stations. Indeed, the poor quality of the closed circuit television cameras has been touched on in this Chamber—the film that is taken cannot be used in many court cases to provide assistance. We all understand the current stringent financial constraints on the public purse, but the reality has to be that while only limited resources are available, the thinking is there to ensure that these changes can be made, albeit not within the time frame that we would like.

Diolch i bawb sydd wedi siarad heddiw. Cafwyd rhai cyfraniadau perthnasol iawn, yn enwedig gan Rebecca Evans, sy’n cyffwrdd ag anableddau nas gwelwyd y mae llawer o bobl yn dioddef ohonynt a’r materion sy’n eu hwynebu. Fe wnaeth hynny ganolbwyntio meddyliau nifer o Aelodau, yn arbennig o ran y materion diogelwch y mae pobl yn eu hwynebu mewn gorsafoedd. Yn wir, soniwyd am ansawdd gwael y camerâu teledu cylch cyfyng yn y Siambr hon—ni ellir defnyddio’r ffilm a gymerir mewn llawer o achosion llys i roi cymorth. Yr ydym oll yn deall y cyfyngiadau ariannol llym presennol ar y pwrs cyhoeddus, ond mae’n rhaid taw’r realiti yw, tra dim ond adnoddau cyfyngedig sydd ar gael, bod y meddylfryd yno i sicrhau y gellir gwneud y newidiadau hyn, er nad o fewn yr amser y byddem yn hoffi.

Ann Jones touched on an important point in her contribution when she talked about Prestatyn station. She mentioned how people comment on the cosmetic look of something, such as the look of the paint on a ramp, instead of thinking about why the ramp is there in the first place. She also mentioned creating greater opportunities for people of all abilities to use public transport. Rhodri Glyn Thomas, among others, highlighted evidence today in committee about how people’s perception of people with disabilities and the aggression—I do not think that that is too strong a word; I think that it was the word that he used in his contribution—that they show disabled people because they are seen as slowing up able-bodied people’s travel. All in society must be aware of the role of education and the level of understanding that is needed.

Cyfeiriodd Ann Jones at bwynt pwysig yn ei chyfraniad pan soniodd am orsaf Prestatyn. Soniodd am sut mae pobl yn sôn am olwg cosmetig rhywbeth, megis golwg y paent ar ramp, yn hytrach na meddwl pam fod y ramp yno yn y lle cyntaf. Soniodd hefyd am greu mwy o gyfleoedd i bobl o bob gallu i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Amlygodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas, ymhlith eraill, dystiolaeth heddiw yn y pwyllgor ynghylch sut mae canfyddiad pobl o bobl ag anableddau a’r ymddygiad ymosodol—nid wyf yn credu bod hynny’n rhy gryf; credaf mai dyna’r hyn y defnyddiodd yn ei gyfraniad—maent yn dangos tuag at bobl anabl am eu bod yn cael eu gweld fel petaent yn arafu teithio pobl abl. Mae’n rhaid i bawb mewn cymdeithas fod yn ymwybodol o rôl addysg a lefel y ddealltwriaeth sydd ei angen.

4.00 p.m.

Many of my colleagues in the Conservative group, such as William Graham, Russell George, Mark Isherwood and Oscar, contributed very valuable points, in particular about the UK fund of £7 million that was set up some years ago. Mark Isherwood in particular touched on that, referring to the request for information from the Research Service. It showed that, although we had the potential to secure in the region of £1 million, only around £400,000 came to Wales to create accessible points at stations. Surely there is a role for Government in promoting the uptake of funds where they are available, although I do accept that we face financial constraints.

Fe wnaeth lawer o’m cyd-Aelodau yn y grŵp Ceidwadol, fel William Graham, Russell George, Mark Isherwood ac Oscar gyfrannu pwyntiau gwerthfawr iawn, yn arbennig am gronfa’r DU o £7 miliwn a sefydlwyd rai blynyddoedd yn ôl. Soniodd Mark Isherwood yn benodol am hynny, a chyfeiriodd at y cais am wybodaeth gan y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil. Dangosodd, er bod gennym y potensial i sicrhau tua £1 miliwn, dim ond tua £400,000 ddaeth i Gymru i greu mannau hygyrch mewn gorsafoedd. Onid oes rôl ar gyfer y Llywodraeth yn hybu defnydd o gronfeydd lle maent ar gael, er fy mod yn derbyn ein bod yn wynebu cyfyngiadau ariannol?

The ability to pull these issues together cannot be underestimated. The quality of the work of the previous committee on this issue is critical in informing you, Minister, and us as Members, for our role in lobbying Ministers in another place, and in making sure that we make improvements for the benefit of people who have disabilities. There can be nothing more frustrating for someone than to feel vulnerable because one part of their journey cannot be concluded. We focus on the railways, but the buses are equally important, as are the taxis that get the person to the station. Training is also required.

Ni ellir tanbrisio’r gallu i dynnu’r materion hyn at ei gilydd. Mae ansawdd gwaith y pwyllgor blaenorol ar y mater hwn yn hollbwysig o ran rhoi gwybod i chi, Weinidog, a ni fel Aelodau, ar gyfer ein rôl wrth lobïo Gweinidogion mewn lle arall, ac wrth sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud gwelliannau er budd pobl sydd ag anableddau. Ni all unrhyw beth fod yn fwy rhwystredig i rywun nag i deimlo’n agored i niwed gan na allant gwblhau un rhan o’u taith. Rydym yn canolbwyntio ar y rheilffyrdd, ond mae bysiau’r un mor bwysig, fel y mae’r tacsis sy’n cael y person i’r orsaf. Mae hefyd angen hyfforddiant.

I would highlight, from personal experience, the appalling state of Cardiff Central bus terminus. The Welsh Government does have a role to play in that respect through sustainable towns money. Even if you are able-bodied, the mess that is Cardiff Central bus station would put anyone off travelling on public transport. I hope that the Minister will focus on making sure that improvements are driven through for the benefit of all communities. I hope that he will reflect on his position on the motion and that, at a later moment, he might consider supporting it. However, I doubt that I will manage to change his mind.

Byddwn i’n amlygu, o brofiad personol, gyflwr echrydus terfynfa bws Caerdydd Canolog. Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru rôl i’w chwarae yn hynny o beth drwy arian trefi cynaliadwy. Hyd yn oed os ydych yn abl, byddai llanastr gorsaf bws Caerdydd Canolog yn gwneud i unrhyw un i beidio â dymuno teithio ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn canolbwyntio ar wneud yn siŵr bod gwelliannau yn cael eu rhoi ar waith er budd pob cymuned. Gobeithiaf y bydd ef yn adlewyrchu ar ei safbwynt ar y cynnig ac, ar adeg ddiweddarach, efallai y bydd yn ystyried ei gefnogi. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn amau y byddaf yn llwyddo i newid ei feddwl.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there are objections. Therefore, I shall defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A yw unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiadau. Felly, byddaf yn gohirio pob pleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Melding) i’r Gadair am 4.02 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Melding) took the Chair at 4.02 p.m.

Dadl Plaid Cymru
Plaid Cymru Debate

Cyllid
Funding

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 and 4 in the name of William Graham, amendments 2, 5 and 6 in the name of Peter Black, and amendment 3 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. If amendment 4 is agreed, amendment 5 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 4 yn enw William Graham, gwelliannau 2, 5 a 6 yn enw Peter Black, a gwelliant 3 yn enw Jane Hutt. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-dethol. Os derbynnir gwelliant 4, bydd gwelliant 5 yn cael ei ddad-dethol.

Cynnig NDM4800 Jocelyn Davies

Motion NDM4800 Jocelyn Davies

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi:

1. Notes:

a) Y toriadau difrifol yn y cyllid cyfalaf sydd ar gael i Lywodraeth Cymru;

a) The severe cuts in capital funding available to the Welsh government;

b) Y diffyg gweithredu a fu gan Lywodraeth gyfredol Cymru i ganfod a denu ffynonellau newydd o gyllid i Gymru; ac

b) The lack of action taken by the current Welsh government to identify and attract new sources of funding to Wales; and

c) Effeithiau’r hinsawdd economaidd bresennol, gan gynnwys yr anawsterau sy’n wynebu busnesau Cymru oherwydd yr amodau byd-eang sy’n arafu a’r bygythiadau i swyddi yn sgil hynny; a

c) The effects of the current economic climate, including the difficulties faced by Welsh businesses due to slowing global conditions and resulting threats to jobs; and

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

2. Calls on the Welsh government to:

a) Mynd ati’n rhagweithiol i chwilio am ffrydiau ariannu ychwanegol i Gymru yn yr un modd ag y mae llywodraethau gwledydd datganoledig eraill wedi’i wneud;

a) Proactively seek out additional funding streams for Wales as governments of other devolved nations have done;

b) Gweithio gyda’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru i gyflwyno newidiadau i arferion caffael ar frys er mwyn ysgogi diwydiant a chreu swyddi yng Nghymru; a

b) Work with the Welsh public sector to urgently bring forward changes to procurement practises in order to stimulate industry and job creation in Wales; and

c) Chyflwyno sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU i gyflwyno toriad dros dro mewn TAW er mwyn ysgogi twf economaidd ymhellach.

c) Make representation to the UK government to introduce a temporary cut in VAT in order to further stimulate economic growth.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I move the motion.

Byddaf yn cyfeirio at y sefyllfa gyllidol a’r sefyllfa economaidd gyffredinol, a bydd Alun Ffred Jones, llefarydd y blaid ar yr economi, yn trafod y polisi caffael a’r polisi treth ar werth. Bydd hefyd yn trafod y gwelliannau.

I will be referring to the financial situation and the general economic situation, and Alun Ffred Jones, the party spokesperson on the economy, will be discussing procurement policy and the policy on value added tax. He will also deal with the amendments.

Credaf ein bod i gyd yn derbyn bod y sefyllfa economaidd sy’n wynebu Cymru a’r byd yn hynod fregus. Mae’n fwy bregus heddiw nag ydoedd hyd yn oed ychydig fisoedd yn ôl pan oeddem yn ymladd etholiad cyffredinol Cymru. Mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid wedi cyfeirio at adroddiad yr IMF sy’n dweud ein bod mewn cyfnod newydd peryglus—y geiriau a ddefnyddiodd oedd ‘dangerous new phase’. Dywedodd, er enghraifft, ei bod yn disgwyl i economi’r Deyrnas Gyfunol dyfu 1.1 y cant eleni ac 1.6 y cant y flwyddyn nesaf. Os ydych yn cymharu’r ffigurau hynny â’r ffigurau yr oeddem yn eu disgwyl, fe welwch fod gwahaniaeth eithaf syfrdanol. Fel yr eglurais wrth y Prif Weinidog ddoe, yr oedd Alistair Darling yn dweud yn 2009 ei fod yn disgwyl twf o tua 3.5 y cant eleni a 2.3 y cant y flwyddyn nesaf. Felly, mae rhywbeth difrifol wedi digwydd i’n sefyllfa economaidd.

I think that we all accept that the economic situation that Wales and the world are facing is very fragile. It is even more fragile today than it was a few months ago when we were campaigning for the Welsh general election. The Minister for Finance has referred to the IMF report that says that we are in a new and dangerous situation—a ‘dangerous new phase’, as it put it. It said, for example, that it expects the United Kingdom’s economy to grow 1.1 per cent this year and 1.6 per cent next year. If you compare those figures with the figures that we were expecting, you will see that there has been quite a shocking change. As I explained to the First Minister yesterday, Alistair Darling was saying in 2009 that he expected growth of about 3.5 per cent this year and 2.3 per cent next year. Therefore, something serious has happened to our economic situation.

Ynghyd â’r ffigurau ar gyfer y sefyllfa fyd-eang, mae’r ffigurau ar gyfer Cymru hefyd yn dangos ein bod mewn sefyllfa argyfyngus. Gwelwn fod y ffigurau diweithdra wedi bod yn codi’n gyson ers mis Chwefror eleni: ar hyn o bryd, y ffigur yw 8.4 y cant ac mae bron i chwarter ein pobl ifanc rhwng 16 a 24 oed yn ddi-waith. Un ffigur sy’n dangos methiant o ran cael twf yn yr economi yw nifer y bobl sy’n ddi-waith am gyfnod hwy na chwe mis. Mae corddi difrifol yn yr economi, hyd yn oed mewn cyfnod o ddirwasgiad; fodd bynnag, pan fo twf yn nifer y bobl sydd yn ddi-waith am gyfnod hwy na chwe mis—y rheini sy’n economically inactive—rhaid inni gymryd sylw o hynny.

Side by side with the figures for the global situation, the figures for Wales also show that we are in a critical situation. We see that unemployment has been rising steadily since February this year: the figure currently stands at 8.4 per cent and almost a quarter of our young people between 16 and 24 years of age are unemployed. One figure that illustrates the failure to secure economic growth is the number of people who are unemployed for more than six months. There is a serious churn in the economy even in a period of recession; however, when there is an increase in the number of people who are unemployed for more than six months—those who are economically inactive—we must pay attention to that.

Yn naturiol, ychydig y gall y Llywodraeth hon ei wneud i wrthsefyll y problemau sy’n wynebu’r economi ar draws y byd. Mae’r IMF yn cadarnhau bod peryglon oherwydd argyfwng dyled yr eurozone a natur fregus economi’r Unol Daleithiau. Fodd bynnag, yn ychwanegol at y problemau y bu inni eu hwynebu yn 2008, 2009 a 2010—ac yr oeddent hwy yn ddigon gwael—mae’r sefyllfa hyd yn oed yn waeth heddiw oherwydd bod y toriadau mewn gwariant cyhoeddus yn dechrau brathu. Mae colli swyddi yn gwbl anorfod yn sgîl rhaglen lleihau’r diffyg, ac yr ydym wedi clywed heddiw fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn mynd i gadw at ei rhaglen, felly mae gennym lai o arian mewn termau real i lywodraeth leol, llai o arian ar gyfer y byrddau iechyd a llai o arian i gyflogi athrawon ac yn y blaen. Felly, byddwn yn gweld cwtogiad yn y sector preifat a’r fwyell yn syrthio ar wariant cyhoeddus.

Naturally, there is little that this Government can do to withstand the problems that are facing the global economy. The IMF has confirmed that there are dangers due to the debt crisis in the eurozone and the fragile state of the United States’ economy. However, in addition to the problems that we faced in 2008, 2009 and 2010—and they were bad enough—the situation is even worse today because the cuts in public expenditure are starting to bite. The loss of jobs is inevitable as a result of the deficit reduction programme, and we have heard today that the United Kingdom Government is going to stick to its programme; therefore, we have less money in real terms for local government, less money available for the health boards and less money available to employ teachers and so on. Therefore, we will see a reduction in the private sector and the axe falling on public expenditure.

Pan gyfeiriodd Llywodraeth San Steffan at y toriadau mewn gwariant cyhoeddus, dywedodd y byddai’r economi’n tyfu i gymryd rhan o’r slac hwnnw. Y gwir yw na fydd hynny’n digwydd. Felly, byddwn yn colli swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus ar ben yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn yr economi yn gyffredinol. Gan nad yw’r sector preifat yn creu swyddi, bydd diweithdra, sydd eisoes yn uchel, yn codi yn uwch o lawer. Mae’n rhaid inni wynebu’r sefyllfa hon a derbyn bod yn rhaid i rywbeth ddigwydd. Ni fedrwn barhau gyda’n polisi presennol.

When the Westminster Government referred to cuts in public expenditure, it said that the economy will grow to take up some of the slack. The truth is that that will not happen. Therefore, we will be losing jobs in the public sector on top of what is happening in the economy as a whole. As the private sector is not creating jobs, the unemployment figures, which are already high, will grow further. We have to face this situation and accept that something has to give. We cannot carry on with our current policy.

Yr oedd y drafodaeth a gawsom ddoe ychydig yn ffals.

The discussion that we had yesterday was a little false.

We had a discussion yesterday on some fairly narrow points about what is happening to the economy. We have to be realistic. I understand the disappointment about the fact that Jaguar is not coming to Wales, but the reality is that it was always a small chance that it would do so—I would put it at between 10 per cent and 20 per cent. It was absolutely right that the officials and the Minister worked hard to attract Jaguar to Wales, but it was always going to be a long shot for us. However, the announcement on the enterprise zones had all of the hallmarks of being rushed out and appeared to me to be a news-management exercise rather than a way of announcing a firm policy, because many questions still need to be answered. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that point.

Cawsom drafodaeth ddoe ar rai pwyntiau eithaf cul ynghylch beth sy’n digwydd i’r economi. Rhaid inni fod yn realistig. Deallaf y siom ynghylch y ffaith nad yw Jaguar yn dod i Gymru, ond y gwir amdani yw yr oedd wastad yn gyfle bychan y byddai’n gwneud hynny—byddwn i’n ei roi ar rhwng 10 y cant a 20 y cant. Yr oedd yn hollol iawn y gwnaeth y swyddogion a’r Gweinidog weithio’n galed i ddenu Jaguar i Gymru, ond yr oedd wastad yn mynd i fod yn annhebygol. Fodd bynnag, ymddengus bod y cyhoeddiadau ar y parthau menter wedi cael eu rhuthro ac ymddangoswyd i mi fel ymarfer rheoli newyddion yn hytrach na ffordd o gyhoeddi’r polisi cadarn, oherwydd mae llawer o gwestiynau i’w hateb. Efallai y gallai’r Gweinidog egluro’r pwynt hwnnw.

I hope that, today, we can look beyond those narrow issues and concentrate on the big picture facing the Welsh economy. I was disappointed by the First Minister’s response yesterday, because I am absolutely certain that the Welsh Government must have a plan B to deal with these exceptional circumstances. The Scots have what they call a ‘plan Mac-B’; Wales should have a ‘plan ap-B’. That is absolutely clear to me. John Swinney, the Minister for finance in Scotland, is today announcing a package of infrastructure projects. The Welsh Government needs to announce its infrastructure plan. The Minister for Finance told me today that that is in the offing, but it is now urgent. That infrastructure plan has to be published.

Gobeithiaf, heddiw, y gallwn edrych y tu hwnt i’r materion cul hynny a chanolbwyntio ar y darlun ehangach sy’n wynebu economi Cymru. Cefais fy siomi gan ymateb y Prif Weinidog ddoe, oherwydd yr wyf yn gwbl sicr bod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru gael cynllun amgen i ddelio â’r amgylchiadau eithriadol hyn. Mae gan yr Albanwyr yr hyn a alwant yn ‘cynllun Mac-B’; Dylai fod gan Gymru ‘cynllun ap-B’. Mae hynny’n gwbl glir i mi. Mae John Swinney, y Gweinidog dros gyllid yn yr Alban, heddiw yn cyhoeddi pecyn o brosiectau seilwaith. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru gyhoeddi ei gynllun seilwaith. Dywedodd y Gweinidog Cyllid wrthyf heddiw bod hynny yn yr arfaeth, ond bellach, mae’n fater brys. Mae’n rhaid i’r cynllun seilwaith hwnnw gael ei gyhoeddi.

We must also look for ways to attract capital from outside the block grant. If we rely on the block for that infrastructure programme, nothing will happen. By 2015, 45 per cent of our money will have gone. In the current circumstances, we cannot shield Wales from the impact of the recession by building our way out of it. Therefore, we must look outside the block grant. The Build4Wales programme and borrowing powers are absolutely essential.

Rhaid inni edrych hefyd am ffyrdd i ddenu cyfalaf o’r tu allan i’r grant bloc. Os ydym yn dibynnu ar y bloc hwnnw ar gyfer y rhaglen seilwaith, ni fyddai dim byd yn digwydd. Erbyn 2015, bydd 45 y cant o’n harian ni wedi mynd. Dan yr amgylchiadau presennol, ni allwn warchod Cymru rhag effaith y dirwasgiad drwy adeiladu ein ffordd allan ohono. Felly, mae’n rhaid inni edrych y tu allan i’r grant bloc. Mae’r rhaglen Build4Wales a’r pwerau benthyca yn gwbl hanfodol.

Some people have said that the Treasury will announce that it is considering a £5 billion infrastructure programme. If that is true, Wales will get around £250 million. I hope that that is true that the Treasury will make that announcement—and I understand that it is trying to deny it because it might upset the markets. That is crucial, because, unless we get more money into infrastructure projects, we will lose even more jobs.

Mae rhai pobl wedi dweud y bydd y Trysorlys yn cyhoeddi ei fod yn ystyried rhaglen seilwaith £5 biliwn. Os yw hynny’n wir, caiff Cymru tua £250 miliwn. Gobeithiaf fod hynny’n wir y bydd y Trysorlys yn gwneud y cyhoeddiad hwnnw—a deallaf ei fod yn ceisio gwadu hynny oherwydd gallai amharu ar y marchnadoedd. Mae hynny’n hanfodol, oherwydd, os na chawn fwy o arian i mewn i brosiectau seilwaith, byddwn yn colli hyd yn oed mwy o swyddi.

In the face of an economic downturn, the policy of the previous Government and the policy of the Minister for business focused on the need to attract new jobs to Wales. In a recession, you cannot do that, and you therefore have to protect the base that you have and look at the ways in which you can do that. That is what we did: ProAct was introduced and ReAct was beefed up. I think that the Government should be looking at reintroducing ProAct. I know that, yesterday, the First Minister talked about SkillWales, but that misses an essential element, because, in addition to providing skills training, ProAct provided a subsidy for employers to maintain their skills base, so I think that that must be looked at again.

Yng ngoleuni dirywiad economaidd, fe wnaeth bolisi’r Llywodraeth flaenorol a pholisi’r Gweinidog busnes ganolbwyntio ar yr angen i ddenu swyddi newydd i Gymru. Mewn dirwasgiad, ni allwch wneud hynny, ac felly mae’n rhaid i chi ddiogelu’r sylfaen sydd gennych ac edrych ar y ffyrdd y gallwch wneud hynny. Dyna beth a wnaethom: cyflwynwyd ProAct ac atgyfnerthwyd ReAct. Credaf y dylai’r Llywodraeth fod yn edrych ar ailgyflwyno ProAct. Gwn, ddoe, y siaradodd y Prif Weinidog am SkillWales, ond mae hynny’n methu’r elfen hanfodol, oherwydd, yn ogystal â darparu hyfforddiant sgiliau, roedd ProAct yn darparu cymhorthdal ar gyfer cyflogwyr i gynnal eu sylfaen sgiliau, felly credaf fod yn rhaid ystyried hynny eto.

As we know, the ReAct budget has been cut. That should be looked at again. So, I am asking the Government to beef up the business budget—and I hope that the Minister for business will recognise that I am trying to assist her here—because, if we are serious about protecting jobs, we must do that. I also believe that we should be calling another economic summit now. It is essential that we have that economic summit to get everyone around the table to understand what we face. Therefore, I believe that the economy and jobs must be the priorities.

Fel y gwyddom, torrwyd y gyllideb ReAct. Dylid ystyried hynny eto. Felly, yr wyf yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth i atgyfnerthu’r gyllideb busnes—a gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog busnes yn cydnabod fy mod yn ceisio helpu hi yma—oherwydd, os ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â diogelu swyddi, rhaid inni wneud hynny. Credaf hefyd y dylem fod yn galw uwchgynhadledd economaidd arall nawr. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn cynnal yr uwchgynhadledd economaidd honno er mwyn cael pawb o gwmpas y bwrdd i ddeall yr hyn a wynebwn. Felly, rwy’n credu bod yn rhaid i’r economi a swyddi fod yn flaenoriaethau.

Yesterday, I did not detect that the First Minister appreciated the scale of the problem and what needs to be done. However, I hope that this debate has given us an opportunity to raise those key issues, and I hope that the Minister can give us a more positive response today.

Ddoe, ni chanfyddais bod y Prif Weinidog yn gwerthfawrogi maint y broblem a beth sydd angen ei wneud. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf fod y ddadl hon wedi rhoi cyfle i ni godi’r materion allweddol hynny, a gobeithiaf y gall y Gweinidog roi inni ymateb mwy cadarnhaol heddiw.

Gwelliant 3 Jane Hutt

Amendment 3 Jane Hutt

Dileu ‘diffyg’ ym mhwynt 1b).

Delete ‘lack of’ in point 1b).

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): I move amendment 3 in my name.

Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf welliant 3 yn fy enw.

Gwelliant 1 William Graham

Amendment 1 William Graham

Dileu pwynt 1a) a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete point 1a) and replace with:

Yr angen i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud y defnydd gorau o’r arian cyfalaf sydd ar gael yn yr hinsawdd economaidd bresennol.

The need for the Welsh Government to make best use of available capital funds in the current economic climate.

Gwelliant 4 William Graham

Amendment 4 William Graham

Dileu pwynt 2c) a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete point 2c) and replace with:

Sefydlu cynllun partneriaeth cyhoeddus-preifat ‘Gwnaed yng Nghymru’ fel rhan o gynllun Seilwaith Cymru.

Establish a ‘Made in Wales’ public-private partnership scheme as part of a Welsh Infrastructure plan.

Paul Davies: Cynigiaf welliannau 1 a 4 yn enw William Graham.

Paul Davies: I move amendments 1 and 4 in the name of William Graham.

Yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma. Yr wyf hefyd am ddiolch i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon. Wrth gwrs, ni fydd yn syndod i’r Siambr ein bod yn cytuno â rhai agweddau ar y cynnig ond na allwn dderbyn rhannau eraill ohono. Gan hynny, byddwn yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig fel y mae ac yn annog Aelodau i gefnogi ein gwelliannau. Byddwn hefyd yn cefnogi gwelliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a gyflwynwyd yn enw Peter Black.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this afternoon’s debate. I also wish to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion. Of course, it will come as no surprise to the Chamber that we agree with some elements of the motion but that we cannot accept other aspects. Therefore, we will be opposing the motion as it stands and encouraging Members to support our amendments. We will also support the Liberal Democrat amendments tabled in the name of Peter Black.

Yn gyntaf, rhaid i ni dderbyn, gyda chyllideb gyfalaf lai, fod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru feddwl yn arloesol ynghylch sut y gellid cyllido prosiectau cyfalaf newydd. Yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig a Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i drafod datganoli pwerau benthyca er mwyn ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf. Wrth gwrs, byddai’n gwneud synnwyr i Lywodraeth Cymru gael y gallu i fenthyg, o ystyried bod gan awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft, y pwerau hynny. Fodd bynnag, o safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru, yr wyf yn credu bod angen iddi fod yn glir ynglŷn â pha fath o bwerau benthyca y mae’n gofyn amdanynt. Mae hefyd angen iddi fod yn glir ynglŷn â sut byddai’r arian yn cael ei ddefnyddio, ac i beth, ac ar ba gyfradd y byddai’n talu’r arian yn ôl. Rhaid i’r broses fod yn gwbl dryloyw. Efallai y gall y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym yn ei hymateb sut mae’r trafodaethau ar bwerau benthyca yn symud ymlaen gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig.

First, we have to accept that, with a smaller capital budget, the Welsh Government has to think in an innovative way about how new capital projects can be funded. I am pleased that the UK Government and the Welsh Government are continuing with negotiations on devolving borrowing powers in order to fund capital projects. Of course, it would make sense for the Welsh Government to have the ability to borrow, bearing in mind that local authorities, for example, already have those powers. However, the Welsh Government needs to be clear about the sort of borrowing powers it is requesting. It also needs to be clear about exactly how the money would be used, to what ends, and at what rate it would repay the money. The process has to be entirely transparent. Perhaps the Minister can tell us in her response how the negotiations on borrowing powers are progressing with the UK Government.

Yr wyf yn cytuno â’r rhan o gynnig Plaid Cymru sy’n nodi y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru chwilio am ffrydiau ariannu ychwanegol, yn enwedig o ystyried mai Cymru yw rhan dlotaf y Deyrnas Unedig yn swyddogol. Yn 2009, yr oedd GVA cymharol y pen yng Nghymru yn 74.3 y cant o gyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig. Y ffigur hwnnw oedd yr isaf o holl genhedloedd datganoledig a rhanbarthau’r Deyrnas Unedig, gan fod GVA y pen yng Nghymru wedi gostwng 10 pwynt ers 1989. Yn amlwg, mae angen gwneud mwy i ddenu buddsoddiad i Gymru. Yr wyf yn credu ei bod yn bwysig bod y Llywodraeth yn dweud wrthym o flaen llaw pa brosiectau penodol a fyddai’n cael eu hariannu o fenthyca ychwanegol. Efallai yr hoffai’r Gweinidog gymryd y cyfle hwn i gadarnhau yn ei hymateb pa fath o brosiectau y mae hi’n bwriadu eu cyllido o fenthyca ychwanegol.

I agree with the part of the Plaid Cymru motion that notes that the Welsh Government should seek additional funding streams, particularly bearing in mind the fact that Wales is officially the poorest part of the United Kingdom. In 2009, the comparative per capita GVA was 74.3 per cent of the UK average. This was the lowest of all the devolved nations and regions of the United Kingdom, with per capita GVA having fallen by 10 points in Wales since 1989. Obviously, we need to do more to attract investment to Wales. I think that it is important that the Government tells us beforehand what particular projects would be funded from additional borrowing. Perhaps the Minister would like to take the opportunity when she responds this afternoon to confirm what sort of projects she is looking to fund from additional borrowing.

Yr wyf hefyd yn digwydd credu y byddai’r ddadl ar gyfer trosglwyddo pwerau benthyca yn cael ei chryfhau pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru yn darparu mwy o eglurder o ran sut mae’n bwriadu defnyddio’r pwerau hynny. Rhaid cael tryloywder ar y mater hwn er mwyn i’r cyhoedd allu cydnabod amcanion y Llywodraeth a deall pam mae’n benthyca ac ar gyfer beth y bydd yr arian yn cael ei ddefnyddio.

I also happen to believe that the argument in favour of transferring borrowing powers would be strengthened if the Welsh Government provided more clarity about how it intends to use those powers. You need transparency on this issue so that the public can recognise the Government’s aspirations and understand why it is borrowing and what the money will be used for.

4.15 p.m.

Mae gwelliant 1 yn nodi’r angen i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud y defnydd gorau o’r cyllid cyfalaf sydd ar gael yn yr hinsawdd economaidd sydd ohoni. Mae hyn yn gysylltiedig ag ail ran y cynnig, sy’n sôn am y diffyg camau gan Lywodraeth Cymru i nodi a denu ffynonellau newydd o gyllid i Gymru. Un ffordd o fynd i’r afael â hyn yw i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud mwy o ddefnydd o’r cyfalaf sydd ar gael gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Yr ydym wedi gweld rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig yn defnyddio benthyciadau i ariannu ysgolion, prifysgolion, ffyrdd ac adeiladau ysbyty, yn ogystal â phrosiectau ynni a chludiant, a chredaf fod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru archwilio’r holl lwybrau cyllid sydd ar gael. Byddai gennyf ddiddordeb clywed gan y Llywodraeth a chan y Gweinidog pa gynlluniau sydd ganddynt o ran gweithio gyda Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop yn y dyfodol. Ni chefais ateb cyflawn yn gynharach yn ystod y sesiwn gwestiynau i’r Gweinidog, felly byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai’n gallu cyfeirio at hyn yn ei hymateb.

Amendment 1 notes the need for the Welsh Government to make best use of available capital funds in the current economic climate. This falls into the second part of the motion, on the lack of steps taken by the Welsh Government to attract new sources of funding to Wales. One way of getting to grips with this would be for the Welsh Government to make more use of the capital available from the European Investment Bank. We have seen other parts of the UK using loans to fund schools, universities, roads and hospital buildings, as well as energy and transport projects, and I believe that the Welsh Government needs to look at all available funding streams. I would be interested to know from the Government and from the Minister what plans they have for working with the European Investment Bank in the future. I did not receive a comprehensive response earlier during questions to the Minister, so I would be grateful if she could make reference to this in her response to the debate.

Mae ariannu preifat hefyd yn haeddu sylw gan y Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn gwybod bod buddsoddi preifat mewn prosiectau cyhoeddus wedi bod yn is yng Nghymru nag yng ngweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Er enghraifft, ym mis Ionawr 2008, yr oedd arian mentrau cyllid preifat yn werth £1,000 y pen yn yr Alban a £990 y pen yn Lloegr, o’i gymharu â dim ond £205 y pen yma yng Nghymru. Dyna pam mae ein hail welliant yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i sefydlu cynllun partneriaeth cyhoeddus-preifat fel rhan o gynllun seilwaith Cymru. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd Aelodau yma heddiw yn cefnogi ein gwelliannau.

Private funding is also something that deserves to be addressed by the Assembly. We know that private investment in public projects has been lower in Wales than in the rest of the UK. For example, in January 2008, private finance initiative money was worth £1,000 per capita in Scotland and £990 per capita in England, compared with only £205 per capita in Wales. That is why our second amendment calls on the Welsh Government to establish a public-private partnership scheme as part of an infrastructure plan for Wales. I hope that Members here today will support our amendments.

Gwelliant 2 Peter Black

Amendment 2 Peter Black

Ym mhwynt 1a), ar ôl ‘Llywodraeth Cymru’ rhoi, ‘ac o dan gynlluniau a gyhoeddwyd gan Alastair Darling yn ei gyllideb yn 2009, byddai toriadau o 45% dros 3 blynedd yng nghyllideb cyfalaf Cymru’.

In point 1a), after ‘Welsh government’ insert, ‘and that under plans announced by Alastair Darling in his 2009 budget, the Welsh capital budget would have been cut by 45% over 3 years’.

Gwelliant 5 Peter Black

Amendment 5 Peter Black

Dileu pwynt 2c).

Delete point 2c).

Gwelliant 6 Peter Black

Amendment 6 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar yr holl bleidiau a gynrychiolir yn y Cynulliad i weithio’n adeiladol ar y broses debyg i Calman sy’n cael ei chynnal gan Lywodraeth y DU.

Calls on all parties represented in the Assembly to work constructively with the Calman-style process being conducted by the UK Government.

Peter Black: I move amendments 2, 5 and 6 in my name.

Peter Black: Cynigiaf welliannau 2, 5 a 6 yn fy enw i.

Amendment 2 notes that we need to take into account that, following a recession, any UK Government would need to have implemented the sort of austerity measures that the current UK Government is bringing into effect, in order to restore confidence to the UK market. This was amplified by nearly a decade of deficit financing by the previous Government. Complaining about this without proposing imaginative solutions is the worst kind of headline politics.

Mae gwelliant 2 yn nodi bod angen inni ystyried y ffaith, yn dilyn dirwasgiad, y byddai angen i unrhyw Lywodraeth y DU weithredu’r math o fesurau llymder y mae Llywodraeth bresennol y DU yn eu cyflwyno, er mwyn adfer hyder i’r farchnad yn y DU. This was amplified by nearly a decade of deficit financing by the previous Government. Cafodd hyn ei chwyddo gan bron i ddegawd o ariannu diffyg gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol. Complaining about this without proposing imaginative solutions is the worst kind of headline politics. Cwyno am hyn heb gynnig atebion creadigol yw’r math gwaethaf o wleidyddiaeth i’r penawdau.

Amendment 5 deletes the proposal to lobby the UK Government—[Interruption.] If you want to intervene, you are welcome to make an intervention.

Mae gwelliant 5 yn dileu’r cynnig i lobïo Llywodraeth y DU—[Torri ar draws.] Os ydych am ymyrryd, mae croeso ichi ymyrryd.

Simon Thomas: He mentions 10 years of deficit budgets by the Westminster Government. Could he tell us on which occasions Liberal Democrat MPs called for less spending during those 10 years?

Simon Thomas: Mae’n sôn am 10 mlynedd o gyllidebau diffyg gan Lywodraeth San Steffan. Could he tell us on which occasions Liberal Democrat MPs called for less spending during those 10 years?A allai ddweud wrthym ar ba achlysuron y galwodd Aelodau Seneddol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am lai o wariant yn ystod y 10 mlynedd hynny?

Peter Black: You will know, Simon, that Vince Cable said on a number of occasions, 2006 most prominently, that the level of debt that the UK Government was getting into—

Peter Black: Byddwch yn gwybod, Simon, bod Vince Cable wedi dweud ar sawl achlysur—yn fwyaf amlwg yn 206—bod lefel dyled Llywodraeth y DU yn mynd—

Simon Thomas: That was personal debt, Peter, and not public debt.

Simon Thomas: Dyled bersonol oedd hynny, Peter, nid dyled gyhoeddus.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. This is not a private conversation.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.This is not a private conversation. Nid sgwrs breifat yw hon.

Peter Black: The Liberal Democrats have been raising this issue in the UK Government and it is fairly evident that, since 2002, the UK Government under Labour was running a deficit budget well before the banking crisis. Of course, that put it in a worse position when that crisis finally came.

Peter Black: Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi bod yn codi’r mater hwn yn Llywodraeth y DU ac mae’n weddol amlwg bod Llywodraeth y DU, ers 2002, o dan Lafur, yn rhedeg cyllideb ddiffyg ymhell cyn yr argyfwng bancio.Of course, that put it in a worse position when that crisis finally came. Wrth gwrs, fe wnaeth hynny ei rhoi mewn sefyllfa waeth pan ddaeth y argyfwng o’r diwedd.

Amendment 5 deletes the proposal to lobby the UK Government for a temporary cut in VAT. The UK Parliament has twice rejected the call for a VAT reduction. So, if the Government were to implement it, it would represent a slight difficulty between us and them. More importantly, the rise in the VAT rate raised an additional £13.5 billion—not much less than the entire budget of the National Assembly—and I can see nothing in this motion as to how Plaid Cymru proposes to fill that gap. We also have to consider the evidence available from when Alastair Darling cut VAT as a temporary measure. There is very little evidence that it stimulated the economy in the way that is being proposed here. It seems to me that that is a myth being proposed by a number of people.

Mae gwelliant 5 yn dileu’r cynnig i lobïo Llywodraeth y DU am doriad dros dro mewn TAW.The UK Parliament has twice rejected the call for a VAT reduction. Mae Senedd y DU wedi gwrthod ddwywaith yr alwad am ostyngiad TAW. So, if the Government were to implement it, it would represent a slight difficulty between us and them. Felly, os bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei roi ar waith, byddai’n golygu ychydig o anhawster rhyngom ni a nhw.More importantly, the rise in the VAT rate raised an additional £13.5 billion—not much less than the entire budget of the National Assembly—and I can see nothing in this motion as to how Plaid Cymru proposes to fill that gap. Yn bwysicach fyth, fe wnaeth y cynnydd yn y gyfradd TAW godi swm ychwanegol o £13.5 biliwn—nid llawer llai na chyllideb gyfan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—a ni allaf weld dim yn y cynnig hwn ynghylch sut mae Plaid Cymru yn bwriadu llenwi’r bwlch hwnnw. We also have to consider the evidence available from when Alastair Darling cut VAT as a temporary measure.Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried y dystiolaeth sydd ar gael o’r adeg pan dorrodd Alastair Darling TAW fel mesur dros dro. Ychydig iawn There is very little evidence that it stimulated the economy in the way that is being proposed here.o dystiolaeth sydd bod hynny wedi ysgogi’r economi yn y ffordd sy’n cael ei gynnig yma. It seems to me that that is a myth being proposed by a number of people.Mae’n ymddangos imi mai myth yw hynny, sy’n cael ei gynnig gan nifer o bobl.

Finally, amendment 6 acknowledges that much of the work in developing additional financial powers for the National Assembly will take place through the Calman-style commission, and encourages each political party represented here to engage with the commission to ensure a consensual approach to greater powers. It goes without saying that we would ask minor parties and other interested bodies to contribute too. The Welsh Liberal Democrats have been key in ensuring that borrowing powers are devolved to the National Assembly. We believe that the power to borrow would help finance large capital projects, particularly infrastructure projects, which would have two effects. The first is that it would develop the infrastructure needed for future economic growth, and the second, as pointed out by Ieuan Wyn Jones in moving the motion, is that it would stimulate immediate economic growth.

Yn olaf, mae gwelliant 6 yn cydnabod y bydd llawer o’r gwaith o ran datblygu pwerau ariannol ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael ei gynnal drwy gomisiwn fel Calman, ac yn annog pob plaid wleidyddol a gynrychiolir yma i ymgysylltu â’r comisiwn i sicrhau dull cydsyniol tuag at fwy o bwerau.It goes without saying that we would ask minor parties and other interested bodies to contribute too. Nid oes angen dweud y byddem yn gofyn i bleidiau llai a chyrff eraill sydd â diddordeb i gyfrannu hefyd.The Welsh Liberal Democrats have been key in ensuring that borrowing powers are devolved to the National Assembly. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru wedi bod yn allweddol o ran sicrhau bod pwerau benthyca yn cael eu datganoli i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. We believe that the power to borrow would help finance large capital projects, particularly infrastructure projects, which would have two effects. Rydym yn credu y byddai’r pŵer i fenthyca yn helpu i ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf mawr, yn enwedig prosiectau seilwaith, a fyddai’n cael dwy effaith.The first is that it would develop the infrastructure needed for future economic growth, and the second, as pointed out by Ieuan Wyn Jones in moving the motion, is that it would stimulate immediate economic growth. Y cyntaf yw y byddai’n datblygu’r seilwaith sydd ei angen ar gyfer twf economaidd yn y dyfodol, a’r ail, fel y nodwyd gan Ieuan Wyn Jones wrth wneud y cynnig, yw y byddai’n ysgogi twf economaidd ar unwaith.

I would like to see the borrowing powers of the National Assembly made equal to those of the Scottish Parliament as soon as is feasible. The details of the proposals for Scotland are already known. Scotland will be able to borrow up to 10 per cent of the capital budget each year, with cumulative capital of around £2.2 billion, with money available from the national loans fund and plans for repayment. There is detail regarding what these Scottish-style borrowing powers mean, so we can evaluate it on that basis. That would be a first step, but an important step nonetheless.

Hoffwn weld pwerau benthyca’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael eu gwneud yn gyfartal â rhai Senedd yr Alban cyn gynted ag sy’n ymarferol.The details of the proposals for Scotland are already known. Mae manylion y cynigion ar gyfer yr Alban eisoes yn hysbys.Scotland will be able to borrow up to 10 per cent of the capital budget each year, with cumulative capital of around £2.2 billion, with money available from the national loans fund and plans for repayment. Bydd yr Alban yn gallu benthyg hyd at 10 y cant o’r gyllideb gyfalaf bob blwyddyn, gyda chyfalaf cronnol o thua £2.2 biliwn, gydag arian ar gael oddi wrth y gronfa benthyciadau cenedlaethol a chynlluniau ar gyfer ad-dalu.There is detail regarding what these Scottish-style borrowing powers mean, so we can evaluate it on that basis. Mae angen manylion ynghylch beth fyddai’r pwerau benthyca hyn, fel yn yr Alban, yn golygu, er mwyn inni werthuso ar y sail honno.That would be a first step, but an important step nonetheless. Byddai hynny’n gam cyntaf, ond yn gam pwysig serch hynny.

That is in strong contrast to the Conservative amendment relating to a ‘made in Wales’ public-private partnership. I have no problem with using private money to invest in infrastructure as long as we avoid the pitfalls of PFI. However, the Conservatives have provided no details on how they would do this, how it would differ from other models or anything about it at all, other than it would be made in Wales. I require a bit more detail before I can offer my total support to that amendment, and I hope that any Conservatives contributing to this debate can flesh out the details of that amendment.

Mae hynny’n wahanol i welliant y Ceidwadwyr ynghylch partneriaeth cyhoeddus-preifat ‘a wnaed yng Nghymru’. I have no problem with using private money to invest in infrastructure as long as we avoid the pitfalls of PFI. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw broblem gyda defnyddio arian preifat i fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith, cyn belled â’n bod ni’n osgoi peryglon PFI. However, the Conservatives have provided no details on how they would do this, how it would differ from other models or anything about it at all, other than it would be made in Wales. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr wedi rhoi unrhyw fanylion am sut y byddent yn gwneud hyn, sut y byddai’n wahanol i fodelau eraill neu unrhyw beth o gwbl heblaw’r ffaith y byddai’n cael ei gwneud yng Nghymru.I require a bit more detail before I can offer my total support to that amendment, and I hope that any Conservatives contributing to this debate can flesh out the details of that amendment. Mae angen ychydig mwy o fanylder cyn y gallaf roi fy holl gefnogaeth i’r gwelliant hwnnw, ac rwy’n gobeithio y gall unrhyw Geidwadwr sy’n cyfrannu at y ddadl hon ehangu ar fanylion y gwelliant hwnnw.

The other point that I would like to make is that there are other ways in which the Welsh Government can stimulate capital investment. The first is tax increment financing, which has been proposed in England by the UK Government. It would allow local authorities to stimulate capital development by borrowing against the increase in business rates raised as a result. I also referred earlier, during questions to the Minister for Finance, to the proposals for a Welsh housing investment trust, which would stimulate capital investment in social housing by using the borrowing power of local authorities and many other mechanisms attached to that. I would like to see that being pursued further. The Minister hinted in her response that that had been abandoned by the Government, so I would like more clarity from the Minister on that.

Y pwynt arall yr hoffwn ei wneud yw bod yna ffyrdd eraill i Lywodraeth Cymru ysgogi buddsoddiad cyfalaf. The first is tax increment financing, which has been proposed in England by the UK Government.Y cyntaf yw ariannu drwy gynyddrannau treth, sydd wedi cael ei gynnig yn Lloegr gan Lywodraeth y DU. It would allow local authorities to stimulate capital development by borrowing against the increase in business rates raised as a result. Byddai’n caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol ysgogi datblygu cyfalaf drwy fenthyca yn erbyn y cynnydd mewn ardrethi busnes a godir o ganlyniad i hynny.I also referred earlier, during questions to the Minister for Finance, to the proposals for a Welsh housing investment trust, which would stimulate capital investment in social housing by using the borrowing power of local authorities and many other mechanisms attached to that. Cyfeiriais hefyd yn gynharach, yn ystod cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, at y cynigion ar gyfer ymddiriedolaeth buddsoddi tai Cymru, a fyddai’n ysgogi buddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn tai cymdeithasol drwy ddefnyddio pŵer benthyca awdurdodau lleol a nifer o fecanweithiau eraill sydd ynghlwm wrth hynny.I would like to see that being pursued further. Hoffwn weld hynny’n cael ei ddilyn ymhellach. The Minister hinted in her response that that had been abandoned by the Government, so I would like more clarity from the Minister on that.Awgrymodd y Gweinidog yn ei hymateb bod y Llywodraeth wedi troi ei chefn ar hynny, felly hoffwn gael fwy o eglurder gan y Gweinidog am hynny.

Simon Thomas: I thought that Kirsty Williams had taken her chutzpah with her to Birmingham, but she clearly left enough behind for Peter Black. The idea that the Lib Dems have been calling for 10 years for less public spending rather than more bears no relationship to reality whatsoever.

Simon Thomas: Yr oeddwn yn meddwl bod Kirsty Williams wedi mynd â’i hyfdra i Birmingham, ond yn amlwg, gadawodd ddigon y tu ôl ar gyfer Peter Black. Mae’r syniad bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi bod yn galw ers dros 10 mlynedd am lai o wariant cyhoeddus, yn hytrach na mwy, heb unrhyw berthynas â realiti o gwbl.

Peter Black rose—

Peter Black a gododd—

Simon Thomas: I will finish this point. I well remember Vince Cable’s remarks on debt; they were on the private debt carried by households and not on the public debt of the country.

Simon Thomas: Rwyf am orffen y pwynt hwn.I well remember Vince Cable's remarks on debt; Cofiaf yn dda sylwadau Vince Cable ar ddyled;they were on the private debt carried by households and not on the public debt of the country. roeddent am y ddyled breifat a oedd gan gartrefi ac nid ar ddyled gyhoeddus y wlad.

Peter Black: I beg to differ, Simon. The Liberal Democrats were not calling for less public spending; what we were calling for was to control the debt that the UK economy was getting into.

Peter Black: Yr wyf yn anghytuno, Simon. The Liberal Democrats were not calling for less public spending; Nid oedd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn galw am lai o wariant cyhoeddus; what we were calling for was to control the debt that the UK economy was getting into.yr hyn yr oeddem yn galw amdano oedd rheoli dyled economi’r DU.

Simon Thomas: Calling for reducing debt by always voting in Westminster budget debates for more public spending is not the way to do it. However, I want to turn away from the fantasy politics of the Liberal Democrats to a more real decision facing the country at the moment, namely what to do about our tanking economy. As the leader of Plaid Cymru outlined in his speech, the growth predictions are for the UK economy to flatline; they have been reduced time and again. We will wait to see what the Office for Budget Responsibility has to say in a month’s time. I will be surprised if it thinks that we will have anything more than 1 per cent growth this year, which, in reality, is a flatlining economy. It is clear that plan A is not working, and that we need to look at alternatives to boost spending.

Simon Thomas: Nid galw am leihau dyledion drwy bleidleisio dros fwy o wariant cyhoeddus bob tro mewn dadleuon ar y gyllideb yn San Steffan yw’r ffordd o wneud hynny. However, I want to turn away from the fantasy politics of the Liberal Democrats to a more real decision facing the country at the moment, namely what to do about our tanking economy.Fodd bynnag, rwyf am droi i ffwrdd oddi wrth wleidyddiaeth ffantasi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ac i benderfyniad mwy real sy’n wynebu’r wlad ar hyn o bryd, sef beth i’w wneud am ein heconomi ffaeledig.As the leader of Plaid Cymru outlined in his speech, the growth predictions are for the UK economy to flatline; Fel yr amlinellodd arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn ei araith, rhagwelir y bydd twf economi’r DU yn gwastatáu;they have been reduced time and again. mae’r rhagolygon wedi cael eu lleihau dro ar ôl tro.We will wait to see what the Office for Budget Responsibility has to say in a month's time. Byddwn yn aros i weld beth fydd gan y Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol i’w ddweud fis nesaf.I will be surprised if it thinks that we will have anything more than 1 per cent growth this year, which, in reality, is a flatlining economy. Byddaf yn synnu os yw’n credu y byddwn yn cael unrhyw beth mwy na thwf o 1 y cant eleni, sydd, mewn gwirionedd, yn economi sy’n gwastatáu. It is clear that plan A is not working, and that we need to look at alternatives to boost spending.Mae’n amlwg nad yw cynllun A yn gweithio, a bod angen inni edrych ar ddewisiadau eraill i roi hwb i wariant.

Ieuan Wyn Jones clearly set out how capital spending, if brought forward, as is being discussed in London at the moment, it seems, may help us in Wales create jobs and boost public spending in Wales. Public spending leads to a boost in the private sector as well—construction jobs and associated trades help the private sector.

Nododd Ieuan Wyn Jones yn glir sut y gall gwariant cyfalaf, os caiff ei ddwyn ymlaen, fel sy’n cael ei drafod yn Llundain ar hyn o bryd, mae’n ymddangos, efallai ein helpu ni yng Nghymru i greu swyddi a rhoi hwb i wariant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.Public spending leads to a boost in the private sector as well—construction jobs and associated trades help the private sector. Mae gwariant cyhoeddus yn arwain at hwb yn y sector preifat hefyd—mae swyddi adeiladu a chrefftau cysylltiedig yn helpu’r sector preifat.

However, I want to concentrate for a few minutes on VAT, because there is now an opportunity to look at reducing VAT, at least temporarily, back to 17.5 per cent. There might also be a long-term idea for reducing VAT to 5 per cent on home renovation, home maintenance and the tourism industry—something that Ireland has done quite successfully in tourism over the last year or so. Why VAT? Before we got ourselves in this pickle, a VAT rate rise to 20 per cent was described by the Liberal Democrats as a ‘Tory tax bombshell’—something that they seem to have swallowed rather easily over the last 18 months. The rise in the VAT rate was described by none less than David Cameron, the Prime Minister, as ‘the most regressive tax’. It is a cause of great sadness  to see a party that calls itself a progressive party—a party that occupies the political centre, or even left of centre from time to time—allying itself with the most regressive taxation policy in the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, that is what the Liberal Democrats are doing by supporting the Tories at the moment.

Fodd bynnag, rwyf am ganolbwyntio am ychydig o funudau ar TAW, gan fod yna gyfle nawr i edrych ar leihau TAW, o leiaf dros dro, yn ôl i 17.5 y cant.  Efallai hefyd y bydd syniad hirdymor ar gyfer lleihau TAW i 5 y cant ar adnewyddu tai, cynnal a chadw cartrefi a’r diwydiant twristiaeth—rhywbeth y mae Iwerddon wedi ei wneud yn eithaf llwyddiannus yn ystod y flwyddyn neu ddwy ddiwethaf o ran twristiaeth. Pam TAW? Cyn i ni gael y problemau hyn, cafodd cynnydd i’r gyfradd TAW i 20 y cant ei ddisgrifio gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol fel ergyd dreth y Torïaid—rhywbeth y maent wedi ei lyncu braidd yn hawdd dros y 18 mis diwethaf, mae’n ymddangos. Cafodd y cynnydd yn y gyfradd TAW ei ddisgrifio gan David Cameron ei hun, y Prif Weinidog, fel y dreth fwyaf atchweliadol. Mae’n destun tristwch mawr i weld plaid sy’n galw ei hunan yn blaid flaengar—plaid sy’n ganolog yn wleidyddol, neu i’r chwith o’r canol weithiau, hyd yn oed—yn cefnogi’r polisi trethiant mwyaf atchweliadol yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Yn anffodus, dyma’r hyn mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei wneud drwy gefnogi’r Torïaid ar hyn o bryd.

What would a cut in VAT mean? A cut in VAT would enable us to kick-start our economy. It is a moot argument as to whether the cut to 15 per cent by Darling helped the economy at the time. There was no sign of great spending on the high street, that is true, but we do not know what would have happened if there had been no cut to 15 per cent. We do not know whether spending would have been even more restricted and whether the economy would have suffered even more at that time. We have had two opportunities to reduce VAT to 17.5 per cent in the House of Commons, in two votes on different aspects of the Finance Bill. Sadly—because the party opposite does not escape criticism either on this occasion—despite having Ed Balls leading the charge for a reduction in VAT, the Labour Party abstained on one occasion and voted against on another. That is why we have brought this to the Assembly today.

Beth fyddai toriad mewn TAW yn ei olygu? A cut in VAT would enable us to kick-start our economy. Byddai toriad mewn TAW yn ein galluogi i roi hwb i’n heconomi.It is a moot argument as to whether the cut to 15 per cent by Darling helped the economy at the time. Mae’n ddadl ddadleuol ynghylch a oedd y toriad i 15 y cant gan Darling wedi helpu’r economi ar y pryd.There was no sign of great spending on the high street, that is true, but we do not know what would have happened if there had been no cut to 15 per cent. Nid oedd unrhyw arwydd o wariant mawr ar y stryd fawr, mae hynny’n wir, ond nid ydym yn gwybod beth fyddai wedi digwydd pe na fu unrhyw doriad i 15 y cant. We do not know whether spending would have been even more restricted and whether the economy would have suffered even more at that time.Nid ydym yn gwybod a fyddai gwariant wedi bod hyd yn oed yn fwy cyfyngedig ac a fyddai’r economi wedi dioddef hyd yn oed yn fwy ar y pryd.We have had two opportunities to reduce VAT to 17.5 per cent in the House of Commons, in two votes on different aspects of the Finance Bill. Yr ydym wedi cael dau gyfle i leihau TAW i 17.5 y cant yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, mewn dwy bleidlais ar wahanol agweddau ar y Mesur Cyllid.Sadly —because the party opposite does not escape criticism either on this occasion—despite having Ed Balls leading the charge for a reduction in VAT, the Labour Party abstained on one occasion and voted against on another. Yn anffodus—oherwydd nad yw’r blaid gyferbyn yn osgoi beirniadaeth ychwaith y tro hwn—er bod Ed Balls wedi arwain yr ymgyrch am ostyngiad mewn TAW, ymatalodd y Blaid Lafur ar un achlysur a phleidleisio yn erbyn ar un arall.That is why we have brought this to the Assembly today. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi dod â hyn i’r Cynulliad heddiw.

We want the Welsh Government to make a coherent argument for a reduction in VAT as a way of boosting the economy, creating new jobs and helping those of us in Wales who are facing an uncertain future. Most public servants are seeing their wages being held without an increase, inflation is at 5 per cent and all that the Bank of England is suggesting is quantitative easing—printing money. I have great concerns about printing money when inflation is at 5 per cent, and I would like to see us boost the economy by putting more money in the pockets of consumers and families who are facing difficult times by way of a cut in VAT. That is why we urge the Labour Party, the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales to take this stand now and say ‘This would help our economy and help boost Welsh jobs’.

Yr ydym am i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud dadl gydlynol ar gyfer lleihad mewn TAW fel ffordd o roi hwb i’r economi, creu swyddi newydd a helpu’r rheini ohonom yng Nghymru sy’n wynebu dyfodol ansicr.Most public servants are seeing their wages being held without an increase, inflation is at 5 per cent and all that the Bank of England is suggesting is quantitative easing —printing money. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o weision cyhoeddus yn gweld eu cyflogau yn cael eu cynnal heb gynnydd, mae chwyddiant yn 5 y cant, a’r unig beth y mae Banc Lloegr ond yn awgrymu yw ‘lleddfu meintiol’—hynny yw, argraffu arian.I have great concerns about printing money when inflation is at 5 per cent, and I would like to see us boost the economy by putting more money in the pockets of consumers and families who are facing difficult times by way of a cut in VAT. Mae gennyf bryderon mawr ynghylch argraffu arian pan mae chwyddiant yn 5 y cant, a hoffwn ein gweld yn hybu’r economi drwy roi mwy o arian ym mhocedi defnyddwyr a theuluoedd sy’n wynebu cyfnod anodd drwy leihau TAW.That is why we urge the Labour Party, the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales to take this stand now and say 'This would help our economy and help boost Welsh jobs'. Dyna pam yr ydym yn annog y Blaid Lafur, Llywodraeth Cymru a Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i sefyll yn gadarn a dweud ‘Byddai hyn yn helpu ein heconomi ac yn helpu i roi hwb i swyddi yng Nghymru’.

Mike Hedges: I agree with a lot of what Simon Thomas said in criticism of the Liberal Democrats. I will not repeat it.

Mike Hedges: Yr wyf yn cytuno â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd Simon Thomas wrth feirniadu’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.I will not repeat it. Nid wyf am ailadrodd hynny.

I am opposed to the Tory-Lib Dem Government cuts at Westminster. I belong to that growing group of people who believe that the cuts are too fast and too deep and are causing a serious threat of a double-dip recession in Britain. The Tory-Lib Dem UK Government is imposing a massive 40 per cent cut in real terms over the three-year period of the current comprehensive spending review. Capital budgets have been slashed this year by more than 25 per cent in real terms. The scale of the Tory-Lib Dem cuts to Wales’s capital funding means that, by 2014-15, the capital budget will be lower in real terms than at any stage since the 1980s. This risks doing major damage to Wales’s economic recovery at a delicate time for the Welsh economy.

Yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu toriadau Llywodraeth y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn San Steffan.I belong to that growing group of people who believe that the cuts are too fast and too deep and are causing a serious threat of a double-dip recession in Britain. Yr wyf yn perthyn i’r grŵp cynyddol o bobl sy’n credu bod y toriadau yn rhy gyflym ac yn rhy ddwfn ac yn achosi bygythiad difrifol o ddirwasgiad dwbl ym Mhrydain. The Tory-Lib Dem UK Government is imposing a massive 40 per cent cut in real terms over the three-year period of the current comprehensive spending review.Mae Llywodraeth Dorïaidd a Decocratiaid Rhyddfrydol y DU yn gosod toriad enfawr o 40 y cant mewn termau real dros gyfnod tair blynedd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant cyfredol.Capital budgets have been slashed this year by more than 25 per cent in real terms. Mae’r cyllidebau cyfalaf wedi cael eu torri eleni gan fwy na 25 y cant mewn termau real. The scale of the Tory-Lib Dem cuts to Wales 's capital funding means that, by 2014-15, the capital budget will be lower in real terms than at any stage since the 1980s.Mae maint toriadau’r Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i gyllid cyfalaf Cymru yn golygu y bydd y gyllideb gyfalaf, erbyn 2014-15, yn is mewn termau real nag ar unrhyw adeg ers y 1980au.This risks doing major damage to Wales's economic recovery at a delicate time for the Welsh economy. Mae yna risg y bydd hyn yn achosi niwed mawr i adferiad economaidd Cymru ar adeg fregus i economi Cymru.

Despite these savage Tory-Lib Dem capital spending cuts, the Labour Government in Wales has been active in investing in new capital projects to modernise our public services. Examples of investment include capital funding announced in 2010 to improve schools and further education institutions and new equipment for the NHS. Cutting VAT was Labour’s policy and Labour did it. When it was done, it caused, in the short term, a boost to the economy—maybe it was not a massive boost, but it was a boost. Anyone looking at the figures for unemployment or the growth rate must come to the conclusion that we need something to boost our economy.

Er gwaethaf y toriadau gwariant cyfalaf ffyrnig gan Lywodraeth y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru wedi bod yn weithgar o ran buddsoddi mewn prosiectau cyfalaf newydd i foderneiddio ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.Examples of investment include capital funding announced in 2010 to improve schools and further education institutions and new equipment for the NHS. Mae enghreifftiau o fuddsoddiad yn cynnwys y cyllid cyfalaf a gyhoeddwyd yn 2010 i wella ysgolion a sefydliadau addysg bellach ac offer newydd i’r GIG. Polisi Llafur oeddCutting VAT was Labour's policy and Labour did it. torri TAW, ac fe wnaeth y Blaid Lafur hynny.When it was done, it caused, in the short term, a boost to the economy—maybe it was not a massive boost, but it was a boost. Pan gafodd ei wneud, achosodd, yn y tymor byr, hwb i’r economi—efallai nad oedd yn hwb enfawr, ond yr oedd yn hwb.Anyone looking at the figures for unemployment or the growth rate must come to the conclusion that we need something to boost our economy. Mae’n rhaid i unrhyw un sy’n edrych ar y ffigurau ar gyfer diweithdra neu’r gyfradd twf ddod i’r casgliad bod angen rhywbeth i roi hwb i’n heconomi.

On the Lib Dems’ amendment 2, does anyone really think that Alistair Darling would have been Chancellor if Gordon Brown had won the election? [Laughter.] One of the many things that I found different when I came to the Assembly was capital expenditure. In local government, I was used to capital coming with a revenue cost; here, capital does not come with a revenue cost. However, borrowing powers are a tool that is available to elected Governments at all levels. To deny the Welsh Government borrowing powers would put Wales at a competitive disadvantage compared with other parts of the UK.

O ran gwelliant 2 y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, a oes unrhyw un yn wir yn credu y byddai Alistair Darling wedi bod yn Ganghellor pe bai Gordon Brown wedi ennill yr etholiad? [ Laughter. ] One of the many things that I found different when I came to the Assembly was capital expenditure. [Chwerthin.] Un o’r nifer o bethau a oedd yn wahanol i mi pan ddes i i’r Cynulliad oedd gwariant cyfalaf.In local government, I was used to capital coming with a revenue cost; Mewn llywodraeth leol, roeddwn i’n arfer gweld cyfalaf yn dod gyda chost refeniw; here, capital does not come with a revenue cost. yma, nid yw cyfalaf yn dod gyda chost refeniw.However, borrowing powers are a tool that is available to elected Governments at all levels. Fodd bynnag, mae pwerau benthyca yn arf sydd ar gael i Lywodraethau etholedig ar bob lefel.To deny the Welsh Government borrowing powers would put Wales at a competitive disadvantage compared with other parts of the UK. Byddai gwadu pwerau benthyca i Lywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi Cymru o dan anfantais gystadleuol o gymharu â rhannau eraill o’r DU.

There are several means of increasing capital expenditure, one of which is borrowing from the UK Debt Management Office, which is what is being done in Scotland and is similar to what is being done in Northern Ireland. However, we must always remember that all debt and borrowing come with revenue consequences. If Wales borrowed £500 million in one year, it would probably cost £25 million to £30 million to service it. The figure would rise if Wales borrowed £500 million every year for 20 years. That would cost £500 million to £600 million to service, and would make a big dent in our revenue.

Mae sawl ffordd o gynyddu gwariant cyfalaf, ac un ohonynt yw benthyca o Swyddfa Rheoli Dyled y DU, sef yr hyn sy’n cael ei wneud yn yr Alban, ac yn debyg i’r hyn sy’n cael ei wneud yng Ngogledd Iwerddon. However, we must always remember that all debt and borrowing come with revenue consequences. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid inni gofio bob amser bod yr holl ddyled a benthyca yn dod â chanlyniadau o ran refeniw.If Wales borrowed £500 million in one year, it would probably cost £25 million to £30 million to service it. Os byddai Cymru yn benthyg £500 miliwn mewn un flwyddyn, mae’n debyg y byddai’n costio £25 miliwn i £30 miliwn i’w wasanaethu.The figure would rise if Wales borrowed £500 million every year for 20 years. Byddai’r ffigwr yn codi os byddai Cymru yn benthyg £500 miliwn bob blwyddyn am 20 mlynedd. That would cost £500 million to £600 million to service, and would make a big dent in our revenue. Byddai hynny’n costio rhwng £500 miliwn a £600 miliwn i’w wasanaethu, a byddai hynny’n gwneud tolc mawr yn ein refeniw.

4.30 p.m.

I am opposed to PFI: we used to believe ‘PFI’ stood for ‘profit for individuals’ and it costs more in the long term and has serious revenue implications, as can be seen from some of the Westminster budgets. The Assembly has powers to move money from revenue to capital but there are serious revenue problems in areas such as health and local government. Capital builds schools and hospitals but you need revenue to put teachers, doctors, nurses and equipment into them. Could a new form of supplementary credit approval be given to councils to approve schemes? Councils have prudential borrowing capacity, which has been underused because of the revenue consequences for councils. If the revenue support grant could be used to give additional money for approved schemes, capital moneys could be released to build schools, for example.

Yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu PFI: roeddem yn arfer credu bod ‘PFI’ yn sefyll am ‘elw ar gyfer unigolion’ ac mae’n costio mwy yn y tymor hir ac mae iddo oblygiadau refeniw difrifol, fel y gellir gweld o rai o gyllidebau San Steffan. Mae gan y Cynulliad bwerau i symud arian o refeniw i gyfalaf ond mae yna broblemau refeniw difrifol mewn meysydd fel iechyd a llywodraeth leol. Mae cyfalaf yn adeiladu ysgolion ac ysbytai ond mae angen refeniw arnoch i roi athrawon, meddygon, nyrsys ac offer i mewn iddynt. A allai ffurf newydd o gymeradwyaeth credyd atodol gael ei roi i gynghorau i gymeradwyo cynlluniau? Mae capasiti benthyca darbodus gan gynghorau, ac nid yw hwn wedi cael ei ddefnyddio digon, oherwydd y canlyniadau refeniw i gynghorau. Pe gallai’r grant cynnal refeniw gael ei ddefnyddio i roi arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y cynlluniau sy’n cael eu cymeradwyo, gallai arian cyfalaf gael ei ryddhau i adeiladu ysgolion, er enghraifft.

The Welsh Government has said that Plaid Cymru’s proposed Build for Wales scheme offers some potential and merits consideration. However, it has a number of potential downsides. It could be expensive to establish: potential costs include legal fees, recruitment, accommodation and other costs that could be significant. It would be expensive to run: Northern Ireland’s Strategic Investment Board cost £7.6 million to run in 2009-10. Improving procurement remains a priority for the Labour Government in Wales and it is leading the way in procurement opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises. The Welsh Government has successfully put in place a series of innovative mechanisms to drive change and they are delivering results: 50 per cent of the £4.3 billion annual public procurement spend in Wales, and 21 of the last 40 construction contracts awarded in Wales, worth £600 million, went to Welsh companies.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dweud bod gan gynllun arfaethedig Plaid Cymru Adeiladu dros Gymru rhywfaint o botensial a’i bod yn werth ei ystyried. Fodd bynnag, mae ganddo nifer o anfanteision posibl. Gallai fod yn ddrud i’w sefydlu: mae costau posibl yn cynnwys ffioedd cyfreithiol, recriwtio, llety a chostau eraill a allai fod yn sylweddol. Byddai’n ddrud i’w gynnal: costiodd Bwrdd Buddsoddi Strategol Gogledd Iwerddon £7.6 miliwn i’w redeg yn 2009-10. Mae gwella caffael yn parhau i fod yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru ac mae’n arwain y ffordd o ran cyfleoedd caffael ar gyfer busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn llwyddiannus o ran gweithredu cyfres o ddulliau arloesol i sbarduno newid ac maent yn dwyn ffrwyth: 50 y cant o’r £4.3 biliwn sy’n cael ei wario ar gaffael cyhoeddus bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru, ac enillwyd 21 o’r 40 o gontractau adeiladu diwethaf a ddyfarnwyd yng Nghymru, gyda gwerth o £600 miliwn, gan gwmnïau o Gymru.

If we want only Welsh businesses to have the contracts in Wales, do we not want them to have contracts in England and in other parts of Britain and Europe? I do not think that anyone here would support protectionism, whereby only Welsh firms got Welsh contracts, if that meant that Welsh companies could not get contracts in other countries. I remember talking to people who were involved in development who were unhappy about the amount of contracts that they had in Wales. I asked them how many they had in England, and the number of contracts that they had in England was greater than the number that they had in Wales.

Os ydym am weld dim ond busnesau Cymreig yn ennill contractau yng Nghymru, a yw’n wir i ddweud nad ydym am iddynt ennill contractau yn Lloegr neu rannau eraill o Brydain ac Ewrop? Nid wyf yn credu y byddai unrhyw un yma yn cefnogi diffyndollaeth, lle mai dim ond cwmnïau Cymreig fyddai’n ennill contractau Cymreig, os byddai hynny’n golygu na allai cwmnïau o Gymru ennill contractau mewn gwledydd eraill. Rwy’n cofio siarad â phobl a oedd yn ymwneud â datblygu a oedd yn anfodlon â’r nifer o gontractau yr oedd ganddynt yng Nghymru. Gofynnais iddynt faint oedd ganddynt yn Lloegr, ac roedd nifer y contractau roedd ganddynt yn Lloegr yn fwy na’r nifer roedd ganddynt yng Nghymru.

Finally, I urge you to think about the ongoing revenue implications of borrowing. I am not saying that it should not be done, but think about the lost revenue opportunity costs.

Yn olaf, yr wyf yn eich annog i feddwl am oblygiadau refeniw parhaus benthyca. Nid wyf yn dweud na ddylid ei wneud, ond rwy’n meddwl am y costau o ran cyfleoedd refeniw a gollwyd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Please make this your last sentence, Mike.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Gorffennwch gyda’r frawddeg hon, os gwelwch yn dda, Mike.

Mike Hedges: It is my last sentence, actually.

Mike Hedges: Fy mrawddeg olaf yw hi, fel mae’n digwydd.

I believe that this Government is making the best of a very difficult situation.

Credaf fod y Llywodraeth hon yn gwneud y gorau o sefyllfa anodd iawn.

Leanne Wood: I would like to focus on public procurement and its potential for stimulating local economies and helping to create jobs. The amount spent by the public sector in Wales is estimated to be £4.3 billion every year. In my view, and that of Plaid Cymru, that money should be working for the Welsh economy, and at the moment so much of it is not. Too much money leaks out of Wales and that is contributing to the ongoing weakness of the Welsh economy. A new mindset is required if we are to turn this around. I accept that some good progress has been made, but to take that next leap a new mindset is required.

Leanne Wood: Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar gaffael cyhoeddus a’i botensial ar gyfer ysgogi economïau lleol a helpu i greu swyddi. Amcangyfrifir bod £4.3 biliwn yn cael ei wario bob blwyddyn gan y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Yn fy marn i, ac ym marn Plaid Cymru, dylai’r arian hwnnw fod yn gweithio dros economi Cymru, ac ar hyn o bryd, nid yw hynny’n wir am lawer ohono. Mae gormod o arian yn cael ei golli o Gymru, ac mae hynny’n cyfrannu at wendid parhaus economi Cymru. Mae angen meddylfryd newydd os ydym am newid y sefyllfa. Yr wyf yn derbyn bod rhywfaint o gynnydd da wedi ei wneud, ond mae angen meddylfryd newydd i fynd cam ymhellach.

In questions earlier, the excellent examples that can be seen in housing were mentioned. Efforts to include social clauses in contracts that enable the sourcing and training of labour locally have been a great success, providing a model of good practice that could be rolled out throughout the public sector. If a local firm gets a contract for work, the money earned by the workers in that firm is more likely to be spent locally, close to where they work, stimulating local business activity. Conversely, people who work far away from where they live are more likely to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, people who are not in work at all are unable to spend money locally, which is why areas with high levels of unemployment often have dying, or dead, town centres. Supermarket, internet and out-of-town shopping has taken a heavy toll on our town centres and there is a limit to what the Government can do to change people’s shopping habits. However, the Government can change its own shopping habits. Every pound that leaks out of Wales is a pound that is not working for Wales. By resolving to try to plug these gaps and keep Welsh expenditure in Wales, that money could contribute towards sustainable jobs growth. If I were to make an optimistic assumption that the Government does not intend to water down the previous Government’s carbon reduction ambitions, measures geared towards supporting public bodies to purchase their food and renewable energy from local sources wherever possible would provide numerous desirable outcomes.

Mewn cwestiynau yn gynharach, crybwyllwyd yr enghreifftiau rhagorol y gellir eu gweld o ran tai. Mae ymdrechion i gynnwys cymalau cymdeithasol mewn contractau sy’n galluogi cyrchu a hyfforddi llafur yn lleol wedi bod yn llwyddiant mawr, gan ddarparu model o arfer da y gellid ei weithredu ledled y sector cyhoeddus. Os yw cwmni lleol yn cael contract ar gyfer gwaith, yna mae’r arian a enillir gan weithwyr y cwmni yn fwy tebygol o gael ei wario yn lleol, yn agos at le maent yn gweithio, gan ysgogi gweithgaredd busnes lleol. Ar y llaw arall, mae pobl sy’n gweithio yn bell o le maent yn byw yn fwy tebygol o wario eu harian mewn mannau eraill. Wrth gwrs, nid yw pobl nad ydynt mewn gwaith o gwbl yn gallu gwario arian yn lleol, a dyna pam fod canol trefi mewn ardaloedd sydd â lefelau uchel o ddiweithdra yn aml yn marw, neu wedi marw. Mae siopa mewn archfarchnadoedd,  ar y we ac mewn canolfannau y tu allan i drefi wedi cael effaith mawr ar ganol ein trefi ac mae yna derfyn i’r hyn y gall y Llywodraeth ei wneud i newid arferion siopa pobl. Fodd bynnag, gall y Llywodraeth newid ei harferion siopa ei hun. Mae pob punt sy’n gadael Cymru yn bunt nad yw’n gweithio dros Gymru. Drwy geisio llenwi’r bylchau hyn a chadw gwariant Cymreig yng Nghymru, gallai’r arian hwnnw gyfrannu tuag at dwf swyddi cynaliadwy. Pe bawn yn gwneud rhagdybiaeth obeithiol nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu glastwreiddio uchelgeisiau’r Llywodraeth flaenorol o ran lleihau carbon, byddai mesurau sy’n anelu at gefnogi cyrff cyhoeddus i brynu eu bwyd ac ynni adnewyddadwy o ffynonellau lleol lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl yn rhoi nifer o ganlyniadau dymunol.

What is stopping the local procurement of food and renewable energy? First, we have competition rules. They may be challenging, but those challenges have been overcome in the social housing sector and in other European Union countries. More work would need to be done to upskill people and to ensure the business capacity to provide food and renewable energy to the public sector. More would also need to be done to train those responsible for procuring on behalf of the public sector—an issue that will be expanded upon later.

Beth sy’n rhwystro caffael bwyd ac ynni adnewyddadwy yn lleol? Yn gyntaf, mae gennym rheolau o ran cystadleuaeth. Er eu  bod yn heriol, mae’r heriau hynny wedi cael eu goresgyn yn y sector tai cymdeithasol ac mewn gwledydd eraill yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Byddai angen gwneud gwaith pellach i wella sgiliau pobl a sicrhau’r capasiti busnes i ddarparu bwyd ac ynni adnewyddadwy i’r sector cyhoeddus. Byddai hefyd angen gwneud mwy i hyfforddi’r rhai sy’n gyfrifol am gaffael ar ran y sector gyhoeddus—mater fydd yn cael ei drafod ymhellach yn nes ymlaen.

Most of all, this would require the political will to set about utilising public sector expenditure to create jobs. Regrettably, without such will and commitment, the cuts will inevitably drive the movement the other way. Bigger, more centralised contracts may well be cheaper, but a failure to decentralise and make money work for the good of the Welsh economy risks us missing a great opportunity.

Yn bennaf oll, byddai angen yr ewyllys gwleidyddol i fynd ati i ddefnyddio gwariant y sector cyhoeddus i greu swyddi. Yn anffodus, heb ewyllys ac ymrwymiad o’r fath, mae’n anochel y bydd y toriadau yn gwthio pethau i’r cyfeiriad arall. Gall contractau mwy, sy’n fwy canolog, fod yn rhatach, ond mae methu â chanoli a gwneud i’r arian weithio er lles economi Cymru yn peri inni golli cyfle gwych.

The creation of a home or internal market was suggested by Leopold Kohr in his 1971 book Is Wales Viable? Kohr’s thinking has been further developed in ‘A Greenprint for the Valleys’. Although it offers solutions for the market failures in the Valleys, its principles can be applied anywhere, and I recommend that Members read both—I would, would I not? Commitment, effort and political will from the Government to plug these gaps and stop money leaking out of Wales, coupled with a commitment to decentralise, unbundle and make public contracts smaller, could provide a much-needed boost to the Welsh economy. Surely this is an opportunity that we cannot afford to miss.

Cafodd y syniad o greu marchnad gartref neu fewnol ei hawgrymu gan Leopold Kohr yn ei lyfr o 1971 Is Wales Viable? Datblygwyd syniadau Kohr ymhellach yn ‘A Greenprint for the Valleys’. Er ei fod yn cynnig atebion ar gyfer methiannau'r farchnad yn y Cymoedd, gall ei egwyddorion gael eu cymhwyso yn unrhyw le, ac rwy’n argymell bod Aelodau yn darllen y ddau—ond mae’n amlwg y byddwn yn gwneud hynny. Gallai ymrwymiad, ymdrech ac ewyllys gwleidyddol gan y Llywodraeth i lenwi’r bylchau hyn a rhwystro arian rhag cael ei golli o Gymru, ynghyd ag ymrwymiad i ddatganoli, dadfwndelu a gwneud contractau cyhoeddus yn llai, roi hwb mawr ei angen i economi Cymru. Yn sicr, mae hwn yn gyfle na allwn fforddio ei golli.

Nick Ramsay: I am grateful to Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate, and I am pleased to contribute to it. I support the amendments tabled in the name of William Graham, as well as amendments 2, 5 and 6 in the name of Peter Black. Amendment 1 recognises the need of the Welsh Government to make the best use of capital funds in what is, we have all agreed, a challenging economic climate in the UK, in the European context, and globally. We all recognise that this is a challenging time and, in any time of global downturn, resources are restricted. The situation that affected the banks in the UK and globally has meant that resources are even more restricted than might otherwise have been the case. I wish it were the case that Wales did not have to play its part in dealing with the UK deficit, but I am a realist and I believe that Wales has to play its part. We all have to recognise that and support the Welsh Government in the efforts that it needs to make to play its part in putting UK public finances on a sounder footing.

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, ac yr wyf yn falch o gyfrannu ato. Cefnogaf y gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd yn enw William Graham, yn ogystal â gwelliannau 2, 5 a 6 yn enw Peter Black. Mae gwelliant 1 yn cydnabod yr angen i Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud y defnydd gorau o gronfeydd cyfalaf mewn hinsawdd economaidd rydym i gyd wedi cytuno sy’n un heriol, yn y DU, yn y cyd-destun Ewropeaidd, ac yn fyd-eang. Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod bod hwn yn gyfnod heriol ac, mewn unrhyw adeg o’r dirywiad byd-eang, mae adnoddau yn cael eu cyfyngu. Mae’r sefyllfa a effeithiodd ar y banciau yn y DU ac yn fyd-eang wedi golygu bod adnoddau hyd yn oed yn fwy cyfyngedig nag y byddant fel arall. Byddai’n well gennyf pe na bai’n rhaid i Gymru chwarae ei rhan o ran mynd i’r afael â diffyg ariannol y DU, ond yr wyf yn realydd a chredaf fod yn rhaid i Gymru chwarae ei rhan. Rhaid inni i gyd gydnabod hynny a chefnogi Llywodraeth Cymru yn yr ymdrechion y mae angen iddi eu gwneud i chwarae ei rhan wrth roi cyllideb y DU ar sail gadarnach.

I do not think that the Barnett formula has been mentioned so far. I know there is a uniform opinion that reform of the Barnett formula and ensuring a fairer funding formula are necessary. I welcome the Chancellor George Osborne’s commitment to looking at reform of the Barnett formula. If we can get that reform over the next few years, then more funding would be available to Wales.

Nid wyf yn credu bod fformiwla Barnett wedi cael ei grybwyll hyd yn hyn. Yr wyf yn gwybod bod barn unffurf bod diwygio fformiwla Barnett a sicrhau fformiwla ariannu decach yn angenrheidiol. Yr wyf yn croesawu ymrwymiad y Canghellor George Osborne i edrych ar ddiwygio fformiwla Barnett. Os gallwn gael y diwygiad dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf, yna byddai mwy o arian ar gael i Gymru.

I agree with the Plaid Cymru Member’s comments earlier that we need far more action by the Welsh Government to attract new sources of funding to Wales. In many respects, that is common sense. When we talk about energy production, we say that diversity is necessary for future stability and security in energy, and you can translate that across to the economy. If you want a broader-based, more secure economy in the future, then you need to rely on different sources of income. Yes, you need to rely on public sector investment, but you also need to recognise the important part that the private sector can play in supporting Government policy.

Cytunaf â sylwadau’r Aelod Plaid Cymru yn gynharach bod arnom angen llawer mwy o weithredu gan Lywodraeth Cymru i ddenu ffynonellau newydd o gyllid i Gymru. Ar lawer ystyr, mae hynny’n synnwyr cyffredin. Pan rydym yn sôn am gynhyrchu ynni, rydym yn dweud bod amrywiaeth yn angenrheidiol ar gyfer sefydlogrwydd a sicrwydd at y dyfodol o ran ynni, a gallwch gyfieithu hynny ar draws yr economi. Os ydych am weld economi fwy eang a diogel yn y dyfodol, yna mae angen i chi ddibynnu ar wahanol ffynonellau o incwm. Oes, mae angen i chi ddibynnu ar fuddsoddiad gan y sector cyhoeddus, ond mae hefyd angen i chi gydnabod y rhan bwysig y gall y sector preifat ei chwarae o ran cefnogi polisi’r Llywodraeth.

My colleague Paul Davies mentioned the European Investment Bank. When I spoke on the finance brief for my party I frequently referred to the need to make more use of the European Investment Bank. In the past, particularly back in the early 2000s, Wales could have benefited far more from funding from that bank. That is not necessarily a party-political point, because I do not think that the UK as a whole has made as much of European Investment Bank funding as it could have. If you look at Spain, rail projects in the north of Spain—major infrastructure developments—benefited from EIB funding. If, at this point of economic difficulty, Wales were to access funding from the EIB, then that would be a helpful development.

Mae fy nghydweithiwr, Paul Davies, wedi crybwyll Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Pan roedd yn llefaru ar y briff cyllid ar gyfer fy mhlaid, cyfeiriais yn aml at yr angen i wneud mwy o ddefnydd o Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Yn y gorffennol, yn enwedig yn ôl yn y 2000au cynnar, byddai Cymru wedi gallu elwa llawer yn fwy o ran cyllid wrth y banc. Nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn bwynt pleidiol gwleidyddol, oherwydd nid wyf yn credu bod y DU yn gyffredinol wedi gwneud cymaint o ddefnydd o arian wrth Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop ag y gallai. Os edrychwch ar Sbaen, mae prosiectau ar y rheilffyrdd yng ngogledd Sbaen—datblygiadau seilwaith mawr—wedi elwa o gyllid gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Petai Cymru, yn y cyfnod hwn o anhawster economaidd, yn derbyn cyllid gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop, byddai hynny’n ddatblygiad defnyddiol.

I found the earlier discussion on the call for a reduction in VAT very interesting. At the time that Alistair Darling made the commitment to that reduction, I do not remember there being that many voices of support, although I stand to be corrected; perhaps Plaid Cymru was vocal in its support for it at the time. Certainly, there was more concern about the negative aspects of the reduction than the positive aspects. I agree with Peter Black that there are probably better ways in which the UK Government could stimulate the economy at this time than committing to funding a reduction in VAT. We should remember that, at the end of a temporary reduction in VAT, VAT goes back up. That did, and does, cause problems.

Roedd y drafodaeth gynharach ar yr alwad am ostyngiad mewn TAW yn ddiddorol iawn. Ar yr adeg a wnaeth Alistair Darling yr ymrwymiad i leihau hynny, nid wyf yn cofio llawer o leisiau yn ei gefnogi, er rwy’n barod iawn i Aelod fy nghywiro; efallai yr oedd Plaid Cymru yn ei gefnogi’n frwdfrydig ar y pryd. Yn sicr, yr oedd mwy o bryder am agweddau negyddol y gostyngiad na’r agweddau cadarnhaol. Cytunaf â Peter Black ei bod yn debygol bod ffyrdd gwell y gallai Llywodraeth y DU ysgogi’r economi ar hyn o bryd nag ymrwymo i ariannu gostyngiad mewn TAW. Dylem gofio, ar ddiwedd gostyngiad dros dro mewn TAW, bod TAW yn mynd yn ôl i fyny. Achosodd hynny broblemau, a bydd yn parhau i wneud felly.

Simon Thomas: I am interested to know what you think the Government should be doing now to stimulate the economy.

Simon Thomas: Mae gennyf ddiddordeb i wybod beth yr ydych yn credu y dylai’r Llywodraeth ei wneud yn awr i ysgogi’r economi.

Nick Ramsay: The UK Government’s policy on tax, in seeking to take people at the lower end of the tax bracket out of income tax altogether is a far better way of injecting money into the economy. It is also a better way of putting money into the pockets of the people who, at this point in time, are having the most difficulties with the increases across the economy and the increases in inflation, which we were talking about earlier.

Nick Ramsay: Mae polisi Llywodraeth y DU ar dreth, wrth geisio cymryd pobl ar waelod y band treth allan o dreth incwm yn gyfan gwbl yn ffordd llawer gwell o chwistrellu arian i mewn i’r economi. Mae hefyd yn ffordd well o roi arian i bocedi o bobl sydd, ar hyn o bryd, yn wynebu’r anawsterau mwyaf o ran ymdopi â’r cynnydd ar draws yr economi a’r cynnydd mewn chwyddiant, a grybwyllwyd yn gynharach.

Finally, the Liberal Democrats have called in their amendment for the Government to work constructively with the Calman-style commission. I have spoken with the Minister for Finance about this in the past and we are all agreed that a constructive relationship between the Government here and the UK Government on the Calman-style commission is essential. Mike Hedges spoke about borrowing powers, and he is quite right—if you borrow money, then you must pay it back. There have been certain consequences to the lack of regard that the previous UK Government paid to that, for which we are now all paying the price. I am therefore glad to see that Mike Hedges is a little bit more sensible than some of his colleagues in Westminster on that subject. However, the principle of us having borrowing powers here, in the same way that a local authority has prudential borrowing powers, certainly needs to be considered.

Yn olaf, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi galw yn eu gwelliant i’r Llywodraeth weithio’n adeiladol gyda’r comisiwn, fydd yn debyg i gomisiwn Calman. Yr wyf wedi siarad â’r Gweinidog Cyllid am hyn yn y gorffennol ac yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno ei fod yn hanfodol bod perthynas adeiladol rhwng y Llywodraeth yma a Llywodraeth y DU o ran y comisiwn fydd yn debyg i gomisiwn Calman. Siaradodd Mike Hedges am bwerau benthyca, ac mae’n hollol iawn—os ydych yn benthyg arian, yna rhaid i chi ei dalu’n ôl. Bu rhai canlyniadau oherwydd nad oedd Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU wedi talu llawer o sylw i hynny, ac yr ydym yn awr i gyd yn talu’r pris. Yr wyf, felly, yn falch bod Mike Hedges ychydig yn fwy synhwyrol na rhai o’i gydweithwyr yn San Steffan ar y pwnc hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid ystyried yr egwyddor o drosglwyddo pwerau benthyca i Gymru, yn yr un modd ag y mae gan awdurdod lleol bwerau benthyca darbodus.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Please wind up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Gorffennwch yn awr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Nick Ramsay: I will.

Nick Ramsay: Gwnaf.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Members are very responsive to my commands this afternoon. I am very grateful to them and long may it continue. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae Aelodau yn ymateb yn dda iawn i fy ngorchmynion y prynhawn yma. Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn iddynt gobeithiaf y bydd yn parhau. [Chwerthin.]

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Hoffwn innau hefyd ganolbwyntio ar gaffael ac ar gymal 2(b) o’r cynnig, sy’n sôn am y newidiadau i arferion caffael, sydd eu hangen. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod rôl y trydydd sector a mentrau cymdeithasol o ran caffael cyhoeddus. Yr ydym wedi clywed sawl cyfeiriad at y sector preifat, wrth gwrs, ond rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio am rôl mentrau cymdeithasol. Yr oedd adroddiad Beecham rai blynyddoedd yn ôl yn dweud bod angen rhoi’r dinesydd wrth galon y gwasanaeth, a pha well ffordd o wneud hynny na drwy gaffael gyda mentrau cymdeithasol? Nid yn unig y byddai hynny’n rhoi ysgogiad economaidd inni, fel yr ydym yn awyddus i’w weld, ond, fel yr ydym wedi clywed mewn tystiolaeth, mae’r arian yn fwy tebygol o gael ei ailgylchu yn yr economi leol os yw cytundebau’n mynd i’r trydydd sector. Byddai hynny’n helpu i lenwi’r tyllau ym mwced yr economi leol, fel yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae gwerth y bunt yn cael ei luosogi gymaint yn fwy na phe bai’r contract yn mynd i’r sector preifat. Mae hefyd fudd ychwanegol, sef budd cymdeithasol, gan fod modd i ni rymuso cymunedau lleol, cryfhau sgiliau lleol ac yn y blaen.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: I would also like to focus on procurement and on point 2(b) of the motion, which refers to changes in procurement practices, which are needed. It is important to recognise the role of the third sector and social enterprises in relation to public procurement. We have heard references to the private sector, of course, but we must not forget the role of social enterprises. The Beecham report some years ago stated the need to put the citizen at the heart of services, and what better way of doing that than through procurement with social enterprises? Not only would that provide us with an economic stimulus, which we are keen to see, but, as we have heard in evidence, money is more likely to be recycled in the local economy if contracts go to the third sector. That would help to plug the holes in the bucket of the local economy, as we have already heard. In addition, the value of the pound is multiplied much more than is the case should the contract go to the private sector. There is also an additional benefit, namely a social benefit, in that we can empower local communities, strengthen local skills and so on.

Felly, rhaid sicrhau bod pres cyhoeddus yn gweithio’n galetach er budd Cymru, ac nid yn y cyd-destun economaidd yn unig. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn gwireddu hynny, rhaid cael newid diwylliannol o fewn nifer o adrannau caffael nad ydynt yn wastad yn ystyried mentrau cymdeithasol fel opsiwn credadwy, nac yn cyflwyno tendrau mewn modd hygyrch. Yn wir, mae’r cytundebau yn dueddol o fod yn rhy fawr, nid yn unig i fusnesau bach ond i fentrau cymdeithasol yn enwedig, ac wedi’u pecynnu mewn ffordd anaddas, ac, fel yr ydym yn gwybod, mae’r toriadau presennol yn debygol o wneud y sefyllfa honno’n waeth. Felly, rhaid gochel rhag hynny.

Therefore, we must ensure that public money works harder for the benefit of Wales, and not only in the economic context. However, in order to realise that, we need a cultural change within a number of procurement departments that still do not consider social enterprises as a credible option and do not always present tenders in an accessible way. Indeed, contracts tend to be too large, not only for small businesses but for social enterprises in particular, and to be bundled unsuitably, and, as we know, the present cuts are likely to make that situation worse. Therefore, we need to protect against that.

4.45 p.m.

Fodd bynnag, ar yr un pryd, rhaid sicrhau hefyd fod mentrau cymdeithasol yn gallu manteisio’n llawn ar unrhyw gyfleoedd. Buddsoddodd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn y sector i hybu twf ynddo drwy gefnogi sefydlu Cynghrair Mentrau Cymdeithasol Cymru, a drwy gefnogi’r gwaith y mae Canolfan Cydweithredol Cymru yn ei wneud i hyrwyddo a hybu’r sector.

However, at the same time, we need to ensure that social enterprises are able to take full advantage of any opportunities. The One Wales Government invested in the sector to promote its growth by supporting the establishment of the Welsh Social Enterprise Coalition, and by supporting the work of the Wales Co-operative Centre in promoting and facilitating the sector.

Yr ydym wedi clywed y cyhoeddiad am barthau menter yr wythnos hon, ond beth am greu parth neu barthau ar gyfer mentrau cymdeithasol? Gellid eu lleoli mewn ardaloedd gwledig iawn, lle mae’r sector preifat a’r sector cyhoeddus yn cilio. Yr hyn sydd ei angen ar fentrau cymdeithasol yw datblygu perthynas gryfach â chomisiynwyr contractau, fel ei bod yn haws iddynt gyflwyno tendrau. Hefyd, dylai cymorth busnes priodol a digonol fod ar gael i fentrau cymdeithasol yn benodol. Mae llawer wedi’i wneud, ond mae llawer mwy i’w gyflawni.

We have heard this week’s announcement on enterprise zones, but what about zones for social enterprises? They could be located in deep rural areas, where the public and private sectors are shrinking. What social enterprises need is to develop a stronger relationship with contract commissioners, so that it is easier for them to submit tenders. Appropriate and adequate business support should also be available to social enterprises. Much has been done, but there is much more to achieve.

Tan yn ddiweddar, byddai dwy ran o dair o gytundebau sector cyhoeddus Cymru yn mynd i gwmnïau y tu allan i Gymru. Yr oedd gwerth y cytundebau hynny bob blwyddyn yn fwy na holl werth rhaglen Amcan Un dros saith mlynedd. Ers hynny, mae’r sefyllfa wedi gwella, ac mae hanner y cytundebau yn aros yng Nghymru. Eto i gyd, mae llawer o ffordd i fynd. Rhaid sicrhau nid yn unig fod mwy o’r cytundebau hynny yn aros yng Nghymru, ond bod mwy yn cael eu rhoi i fentrau cymdeithasol.

Until recently, two thirds of Welsh public sector contracts were awarded to companies from outside Wales. The annual value of those contracts was higher than the total value of the Objective One programme over seven years. The situation has improved, and half of all contracts now stay in Wales. However, there is a long way to go. More of these contracts must stay in Wales, and more must be awarded to social enterprises.

Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Gweinidog yn dweud yn gynharach fod angen bod yn fwy heriol ac yn ddewrach wrth wthio ffiniau rheoliadau caffael, a chroesawaf hynny’n fawr. Dyna’r agwedd fwy creadigol ac uchelgeisiol yr ydym yn ceisio’i hyrwyddo yn y cynnig.

I was pleased to hear the Minister say earlier that more courage must be demonstrated in challenging the boundaries of procurement regulations, and I welcome that. That is the more creative and ambitious stand that we are trying to promote in this motion.

Mark Drakeford: Thank you for the opportunity to take part in the debate. On the whole, the debate has been serious in tone, and that is absolutely right, because it is almost impossible to exaggerate the dangers that face the British economy, now and in the months to come. That is a view that is shared by some parties in the Chamber, but not by all. Some of you will have heard the Chief Secretary to the Treasury this morning desperately trying to defend the coalition Government’s economic policies in the face of the IMF’s evidence. He referred persistently to his Government’s policies as the greatest asset that Britain has. It reminded me of a man who, having decided to go swimming, has tied a great iron ring around his neck, and as he disappears below the waves, he waves to the shore and says, ‘At least I have an asset’. As the leader of Plaid Cymru set out clearly in the first half of his opening contribution, the British economy is in exactly that position: disappearing fast below the waves. That puts an even greater obligation on the Welsh Government to do everything it can to protect and defend the Welsh economy. However, there is a little bit of good news, which Members will have heard in the Chamber already, which is that there is no dearth of ideas about what might be done in Wales to do just that. Those ideas include—I do not think that they have all been mentioned so far this afternoon—social impact bonds, a Welsh housing bond, a Wales savings super-mutual, and a development bank for Wales that would draw on the experience of solidarity funds in Quebec and on the finance that is held by the eight major public sector pension funds.

Mark Drakeford: Diolch am y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl. Ar y cyfan, mae’r ddadl wedi bod yn ddifrifol o ran tôn, ac mae hynny’n hollol iawn, gan ei bod bron yn amhosibl gorbwysleisio’r peryglon sy’n wynebu economi Prydain, yn awr ac yn y misoedd i ddod. Mae honno’n farn sy’n cael ei rhannu gan rai pleidiau yn y Siambr, ond nid gan bawb. Bydd rhai ohonoch wedi clywed Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys y bore yma yn ceisio’n daer i amddiffyn polisïau economaidd y Llywodraeth glymblaid yn wyneb tystiolaeth yr IMF. Cyfeiriodd yn gyson at bolisïau ei Lywodraeth fel yr ased mwyaf sydd gan Brydain. Mae’n fy atgoffa o ddyn sydd, ar ôl penderfynu mynd i nofio, yn clymu cylch haearn mawr o amgylch ei wddf, ac, wrth iddo ddiflannu o dan y tonnau, mae’n chwifio at y lan ac yn dweud, ‘O leiaf mae gennyf ased’. Fel y bu i arweinydd Plaid Cymru amlinellu’n glir yn ystod hanner cyntaf ei gyfraniad agoriadol, mae economi Prydain yn yr union sefyllfa honno: mae’n diflannu’n gyflym o dan y tonnau. Mae hynny’n rhoi hyd yn oed mwy o ddyletswydd ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud popeth o fewn ei gallu i ddiogelu ac amddiffyn economi Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae ychydig o newyddion da, a bydd yr Aelodau wedi clywed y newyddion hynny yn y Siambr yn barod, sef nad oes prinder syniadau ynglŷn â beth y gellid ei wneud yng Nghymru i wneud hynny. Mae’r syniadau hynny’n cynnwys—ac nid wyf yn meddwl eu bod i gyd wedi eu crybwyll yn barod y prynhawn yma—bondiau effaith gymdeithasol, bond tai Cymreig, cwmni cynilo cydfuddiannol a banc datblygu ar gyfer Cymru a fyddai’n defnyddio profiad cronfeydd cydsefyll Quebec a’r cyllid sy’n cael ei ddal gan yr wyth cronfa pensiwn mawr yn y sector cyhoeddus.

I want to say something about the experience in Quebec, because there are lessons to be drawn from it. It is called a solidarity fund, because it is an $8.2 billion fund that has grown out of the funds of the trade union movement. These are assets that belong to trade unionists, in their pension funds and in their savings. Those who run the fund say that those assets are used in Quebec to be part of the struggle for full employment and the struggle to improve conditions for labour in the Quebec economy. Last year, the Quebec solidarity fund put $25 million aside for a new fund for agriculture in that province, in order to provide capital funding for new entrants into farming, to provide them with an equity stake in the purchase of land, and to provide them with start-up grants so that, as they said, aspiring young farmers facing a tough challenge can get a new start in their own economy. This year, the solidarity fund has provided $6 million to invest in the growth of the aerospace industry in Quebec. This investment will almost double the number of high-skilled jobs that that industry provides.

Yr wyf am ddweud rhywbeth am y profiad yn Quebec, oherwydd mae gwersi i’w dysgu o’r profiad hynny. Fe’i gelwir yn gronfa gydsefyll, gan ei bod yn gronfa $8.2 biliwn sydd wedi tyfu allan o gronfeydd y mudiad undebau llafur. Mae’r rhain yn asedau sy’n perthyn i undebwyr llafur, yn eu cronfeydd pensiwn ac yn eu cynilion. Mae’r rhai sy’n rhedeg y gronfa yn dweud bod yr asedau hynny’n cael eu defnyddio yn Quebec yn rhan o’r frwydr ar gyfer cyflogaeth lawn a’r frwydr i wella’r amodau ar gyfer llafur yn economi Quebec. Y llynedd, rhoddodd gronfa gydsefyll Quebec $25 miliwn o’r neilltu ar gyfer cronfa newydd ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth yn y dalaith, er mwyn darparu cyllid cyfalaf ar gyfer newydd-ddyfodiaid i ffermio, er mwyn rhoi cyfran ecwiti iddynt o ran prynu tir, ac i ddarparu grantiau i gychwyn busnes iddynt fel y gall ffermwyr ifanc uchelgeisiol sy’n wynebu her anodd ddechrau o’r newydd yn eu heconomi eu hunain. Eleni, mae’r gronfa gydsefyll wedi darparu $6 miliwn i’w buddsoddi yn nhwf y diwydiant awyrofod yn Quebec. Bydd y buddsoddiad hwn yn dyblu nifer y swyddi tra medrus y mae’r diwydiant hwnnw yn eu darparu.

Yn hynny o beth, mae gennym yr hyn a glywsom gan y Llywodraeth yr wythnos hon. Hoffwn groesawu datganiad y Gweinidog dros fusnes am gyhoeddi y bydd parthau menter yng Nghymru. Drwy fuddsoddi mewn sectorau penodol, fel y mae Cwebéc yn gwneud, bydd yn bosibl adeiladu ar y meysydd hynny yn economi Cymru sy’n parhau i fod yn gryf.

In this regard, we have the announcement we heard from the Government this week. I would like to welcome the statement by the Minister for business for announcing that there will be enterprise zones in Wales. By investing in certain sectors, as is being done in Quebec, it is possible to build on those areas in the Welsh economy that continue to be strong.

This is an example of exactly what the Government has done this week, and this can be seen in the example from Quebec. There are ideas that we can use in Wales. Therefore, Minister, we look forward to hearing your reply to the debate, particularly because we know that we will be relying on your vast experience and your commitment to these things, because the key political task that we face is in taking these new ideas and making them a reality in Wales. We are not short of such ideas, but you know, as do those who were involved in the One Wales Government, that there is a huge amount of passive resistance to new ideas in the machinery of government. It is a really difficult job, but it is one that relies on key political determination to take some of the ideas that we have heard in the Chamber this afternoon and put them to work for the benefit of Wales.

Mae hyn yn enghraifft o beth yn union y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi’i wneud yr wythnos hon, a gellir gweld hyn yn yr enghraifft o Quebec. Mae syniadau y gallwn eu defnyddio yng Nghymru. Felly, Weinidog, yr ydym yn edrych ymlaen at glywed eich ymateb i’r ddadl, yn enwedig gan ein bod yn gwybod y byddwn yn dibynnu ar eich profiad helaeth ac eich ymrwymiad i’r pethau hyn, gan fod y dasg wleidyddol allweddol rydym yn ei hwynebu yn un o gymryd y syniadau newydd a’u gwneud yn realiti yng Nghymru. Nid ydym yn brin o syniadau o’r fath, ond rydych yn gwybod, fel y gwyddai pawb a oedd yn rhan o Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un, fod llawer iawn o wrthwynebiad goddefol i syniadau newydd ym mheirianwaith llywodraeth. Mae’n waith anodd iawn, ond mae’n un sy’n dibynnu ar benderfyniad gwleidyddol allweddol i gymryd rhai o’r syniadau yr ydym wedi’u clywed yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma a’u rhoi ar waith er lles Cymru.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): As Mark Drakeford has said, the debate on the motion before us has been serious in tone and it has been a very good debate. This motion usefully and topically highlights the very large cuts that have been planned to our capital funding over the next few years. It is right that the motion refers to the substantial economic risks that we face in the current climate. As Ieuan Wyn Jones said in moving the motion, the IMF made this clear in its latest grim growth forecast overnight. There are real risks to the economy if the UK Government does not change course, particularly in relation to capital cuts. We await more information on the so-called ‘infrastructure injection’ of £5 billion with interest, and we look forward to hearing what that will mean for us: we need our share.

Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Fel y mae Mark Drakeford wedi ei ddweud, mae’r ddadl ar y cynnig sydd ger ein bron wedi bod yn un ddifrifol o ran naws ac mae wedi bod yn ddadl dda iawn. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn tynnu sylw at y toriadau mawr iawn sydd wedi cael eu cynllunio i’n cyllid cyfalaf dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf mewn ffordd ddefnyddiol ac amserol iawn. Mae’n iawn bod y cynnig yn cyfeirio at y risgiau economaidd sylweddol rydym ni’n eu hwynebu yn yr hinsawdd bresennol. Fel y dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones wrth gynnig y cynnig, gwnaeth yr IMF hyn yn glir yn ei rhagolwg tyfiant diweddaraf dros nos, rhagolwg a oedd yn ddu iawn. Mae risgiau gwirioneddol i’r economi os na fydd Llywodraeth y DU yn newid cyfeiriad, yn enwedig o ran toriadau cyfalaf. Yr ydym yn disgwyl rhagor o wybodaeth am yr hwb i isadeiledd o £5 biliwn gyda llog, ac edrychwn ymlaen at glywed beth fydd hyn yn ei olygu i ni: mae angen i ni gael ein cyfran ni.

The debate has also given us the opportunity to consider the Welsh Government’s actions in response to these spending cuts and their wider economic consequences. It is no exaggeration to describe the cuts to the capital budget of the Welsh Government as ‘severe’. In 2009-10, the last full year under the previous UK Government, £1.9 billion was allocated for Wales to finance capital investment. By the end of the current spending review period under the plans of the new UK coalition Government, that budget will have been cut to just £1.1 billion. This amounts to a massive 50 per cent real-terms reduction in investment spending over just five years.

Mae’r ddadl hefyd wedi rhoi cyfle inni ystyried camau gweithredu Llywodraeth Cymru mewn ymateb i’r toriadau mewn gwariant a’u canlyniadau economaidd ehangach i ni. Nid yw’n ormod i ddisgrifio’r toriadau i gyllideb cyfalaf Llywodraeth Cymru yn ‘ddifrifol’. Yn 2009-10, y flwyddyn lawn ddiwethaf o dan Lywodraeth flaenorol y DU, dyrannwyd £1.9 biliwn i Gymru er mwyn ariannu buddsoddiad cyfalaf. Erbyn diwedd y cyfnod presennol o adolygu gwariant cyfredol o dan gynlluniau Llywodraeth glymblaid newydd y DU, bydd y gyllideb honno wedi cael ei thorri i ddim ond £1.1 biliwn. Mae hyn yn gyfystyr â gostyngiad enfawr mewn gwariant buddsoddi o 50 y cant mewn termau real dros gyfnod o bum mlynedd.

Andrew R.T. Davies: It is wrong to put those figures out in that way, because the previous Government delayed the comprehensive spending review by 12 months and was managing to cut the budget—for every £8 that we will be cutting, you would be cutting £7. We know from Alistair Darling’s diaries that you did not have a plan to manage the fiscal situation that this country was facing. That is from your own Chancellor.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Nid yw’n iawn i osod y ffigurau hynny allan yn y ffordd honno, gan fod y Llywodraeth flaenorol wedi gohirio’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant am 12 mis ac roedd yn llwyddo i dorri’r gyllideb—am bob £8 y byddwn ni yn ei dorri, byddech chi’n torri £7. Rydym yn gwybod o ddyddiaduron Alistair Darling nad oedd gennych gynllun i reoli’r sefyllfa ariannol y mae’r wlad hon yn ei hwynebu. Mae hynny oddi wrth eich Canghellor eich hun.

Jane Hutt: I think that the leader of the opposition needs to remember that the previous UK Government did not set a capital departmental expenditure limit for Wales beyond 2010-11. There is not a Welsh capital DEL as set by the previous Government to compare with our actual capital DEL, which represents a massive 50 per cent real-terms reduction in investment.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn meddwl bod angen i arweinydd yr wrthblaid i gofio nad oedd Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU wedi gosod terfyn gwariant adrannol ar gyfer cyfalaf i Gymru y tu hwnt i 2010-11. Nid oes DEL cyfalaf fel y gosodwyd gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol o’i gymharu â’n DEL cyfalaf gwirioneddol, sy’n golygu gostyngiad enfawr o 50 y cant mewn buddsoddiad mewn termau real.

I know that Members are waiting to hear the budget that I will present to the Assembly on 4 October. That budget will demonstrate the Welsh Government’s leadership, which has been called for across the Chamber, and its determination to do everything it can to protect our key public services from the impact of these cuts. Tough decisions will have to be made, and it is inevitable that cuts of such magnitude will have real and harmful consequences for our ability to invest in Welsh economic infrastructure and will impact negatively on our plans for improvement in all areas of devolved responsibility. This is a harsh, inescapable fact. The issue is what we do about it in response.

Gwn fod Aelodau yn aros i glywed y gyllideb y byddaf yn ei chyflwyno i’r Cynulliad ar 4 Hydref. Bydd y gyllideb honno yn dangos arweinyddiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru—ac mae Aelodau ar draws y Siambr wedi galw am hynny—a’i phenderfyniad i wneud popeth o fewn ei gallu i warchod ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus allweddol rhag effaith y toriadau hyn. Bydd yn rhaid gwneud penderfyniadau anodd, ac mae’n anochel y bydd toriadau o’r fath yn arwain at ganlyniadau gwirioneddol a niweidiol o ran ein gallu i fuddsoddi yn seilwaith economaidd Cymru a bydd yn cael effaith negyddol ar ein cynlluniau ar gyfer gwella ym mhob maes lle mae’r cyfrifoldeb wedi ei ddatganoli. Mae hon yn ffaith lem, anochel. Y broblem yw beth rydym yn ei wneud am y peth wrth ymateb.

The cuts that are being imposed on our capital budget will be directly harmful to the infrastructure of our public services. I believe that they will be damaging to the wider economy. The motion is correct to draw attention to the challenging economic climate we face in Wales and the resulting threat to jobs, which Simon Thomas highlighted. The Welsh Government recognises the need for a credible deficit-reduction strategy over the medium term, as Nick Ramsay acknowledged. We have always said that we will play our part, but we have repeatedly argued that the UK Government’s planned cuts go too far too fast, as Mike Hedges said. Far from providing a solid basis for deficit reduction, they risk undermining the economic recovery and perhaps even tipping us back into recession.

Bydd y toriadau sy’n cael eu gorfodi ar ein cyllideb gyfalaf yn uniongyrchol niweidiol i seilwaith ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Credaf y byddant yn niweidiol i’r economi ehangach. Mae’r cynnig yn iawn i dynnu sylw at yr hinsawdd economaidd heriol rydym ni’n ei hwynebu yng Nghymru a’r bygythiad sy’n deillio o hynny o ran swyddi, a chrybwyllwyd hynny gan Simon Thomas. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cydnabod yr angen am strategaeth gredadwy i leihau’r diffyg ariannol yn y tymor canolig, fel y cydnabu Nick Ramsay. Yr ydym bob amser wedi dweud y byddwn yn chwarae ein rhan, ond yr ydym wedi dadlau dro ar ôl tro bod toriadau arfaethedig Llywodraeth y DU yn mynd yn rhy bell yn rhy gyflym, fel y dywedodd Mike Hedges. Ymhell o ddarparu sylfaen gadarn ar gyfer lleihau diffyg, maent mewn perygl o danseilio adferiad economaidd ac efallai hyd yn oed yn ein harwain yn ôl i ddirwasgiad.

I want to move on to the call for a temporary cut in VAT in response to the challenging economic climate we face. It is certainly one measure that could usefully be taken by the UK Government as a kick-start to the economy, as Simon Thomas said. I am happy to endorse calls to lower the VAT burden in the current circumstances. Indeed, earlier this year, I wrote to the Chancellor urging him to temporarily reduce the rate of VAT on building repairs. That call came directly from the Federation of Master Builders—from the construction sector—which asked me to ask the Chancellor. Unfortunately, the response was negative.

Yr wyf am symud ymlaen at yr alwad am doriad dros dro mewn TAW mewn ymateb i’r hinsawdd economaidd heriol rydym ni’n ei hwynebu. Mae’n sicr yn un mesur y byddai’n ddefnyddiol i Lywodraeth y DU ei gymryd fel fordd o hybu’r economi, fel y dywedodd Simon Thomas. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi’r galwadau i ostwng y baich TAW yn yr amgylchiadau presennol. Yn wir, yn gynharach eleni, ysgrifennais at y Canghellor i’w annog i ostwng dros dro y gyfradd TAW ar atgyweiriadau adeiladau. Daeth yr alwad honno yn uniongyrchol gan Ffederasiwn y Meistr Adeiladwyr—o’r sector adeiladu—a ofynnodd i mi i ofyn hynny i’r Canghellor. Yn anffodus, roedd yr ymateb yn un negyddol.

Peter Black: I very much support the proposal to reduce VAT on building repairs. It was, of course, a motion that was passed a number of times in this Chamber and put to the previous Labour Government, which also rejected it.

Peter Black: Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r cynnig i leihau TAW ar atgyweiriadau adeiladau yn fawr iawn. Yr oedd, wrth gwrs, yn gynnig a basiwyd nifer o weithiau yn y Siambr hon a’i roi i’r Llywodraeth Lafur flaenorol, a wnaeth hefyd ei wrthod.

Jane Hutt: My call was to the current Chancellor, and I hope that you will join me now—

Jane Hutt: Bu i mi alw ar y Canghellor presennol, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwch yn ymuno â mi nawr—

Peter Black: You did not do it, so why should we?

Peter Black: Ni wnaethoch chi hynny, felly pam y dylem ni?

Jane Hutt: That is a very useful contribution from Peter Black. Join me and give me your support, Peter, as I raise the issue again with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n gyfraniad defnyddiol iawn gan Peter Black. Ymunwch â mi a rhowch eich cefnogaeth, Peter, wrth i mi godi’r mater eto gyda Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys.

I am glad that the leader of Plaid Cymru recognises the need for us to move on and to do so constructively, and I want to move on swiftly to the action that the Welsh Government is taking in response to the challenges we face. As Members are aware, the First Minister met the Chancellor, George Osborne, in July to discuss reform of the way in which Wales is financed. Those discussions were constructive, and we have now entered inter-governmental discussions on funding reform with the UK Government. In those talks, we are pressing for access to borrowing powers to finance capital spending along with a fairer funding settlement that would put our block grant on a sustainable footing. We are all signed up to this across the Chamber, as the July debate demonstrated.

Yr wyf yn falch bod arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn cydnabod yr angen i ni symud ymlaen ac i wneud hynny yn adeiladol, ac yr wyf am symud ymlaen yn gyflym at y camau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i ymateb i’r heriau rydym ni’n eu hwynebu. Fel y gŵyr Aelodau, bu i’r Prif Weinidog gyfarfod â’r  Canghellor, George Osborne, ym mis Gorffennaf i drafod diwygio’r ffordd y mae Cymru’n cael ei hariannu. Roedd y trafodaethau hynny yn adeiladol, ac rydym bellach wedi dechrau trafodaethau rhynglywodraethol ar ddiwygio cyllido gyda Llywodraeth y DU. Yn y trafodaethau hynny, yr ydym yn pwyso am fynediad at bwerau benthyca i ariannu gwariant cyfalaf ynghyd â setliad ariannu tecach a fyddai’n rhoi ein grant bloc ar sylfaen gynaliadwy. Rydym i gyd yn cefnogi hyn ar draws y Siambr, fel y dangoswyd yn ystod y ddadl ym mis Gorffennaf.

I want to reassure Paul Davies that we are seeking borrowing powers along the lines of the Holtham commission’s independent report. Our initial priority will be to seek rapid access to borrowing powers. The debt management office is likely to provide the simplest, most cost-effective and quickest route to making progress, but, of course, that is what we have to do in the sense of being guided by the need to secure the best deal for Wales. Paul Davies and Mike Hedges also made the point that we have to recognise the legitimate issue of the interest the UK Government has with regard to managing the fiscal position of the UK as a whole. With regard to borrowing powers, we must recognise that there could be some constraints on the ability of the Welsh Government to borrow.

Yr wyf am sicrhau Paul Davies ein bod yn ceisio pwerau benthyca yn unol â’r hyn sydd yn adroddiad annibynnol comisiwn Holtham. Ein blaenoriaeth gyntaf fydd ceisio mynediad cyflym at bwerau benthyca. Mae’r swyddfa rheoli dyledion yn debygol o ddarparu’r llwybr symlaf, mwyaf cost-effeithiol a chyflymaf i wneud cynnydd, ond, wrth gwrs, dyna’r hyn yr ydym wedi ei wneud, yn yr ystyr o gael ei harwain gan yr angen i sicrhau’r fargen orau i Gymru. Bu i Paul Davies a Mike Hedges hefyd wneud y pwynt bod yn rhaid i ni gydnabod y sefyllfa o ran diddordeb y DU yn y mater o reoli sefyllfa gyllidol y DU gyfan. O ran pwerau benthyca, mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod y gallai fod rhai cyfyngiadau ar allu Llywodraeth Cymru i fenthyca.

However, we are ready for it. The position with regard to borrowing powers is complex, but, as I previously reported to the Chamber, we have the powers required, as demonstrated by the merger of the Welsh Development Agency into the Welsh Government. We are also committed to seeking that positive relationship, alongside the inter-governmental talks, with the UK Government commission on devolution in Wales. I am happy to have that fact put on record. There is no question about cross-party support for what Peter Black’s amendment 6 calls for with regard to that commission. Constructive bilateral engagement with the UK Government is one route we are pursuing to offset the damage caused by cuts to our capital budget.

Fodd bynnag, rydym yn barod ar ei gyfer. Mae’r sefyllfa o ran pwerau benthyca yn gymhleth, ond, fel yr adroddais yn flaenorol i’r Siambr, mae gennym y pwerau angenrheidiol, fel y dangoswyd drwy uno Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru â Llywodraeth Cymru. Rydym hefyd wedi ymrwymo i geisio perthynas gadarnhaol, ochr yn ochr â’r trafodaethau rhynglywodraethol, gyda chomisiwn Llywodraeth y DU ar ddatganoli yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn hapus i’r ffaith hynny gael ei gofnodi. Nid oes unrhyw gwestiwn am gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar gyfer yr hyn y mae gwelliant 6 Peter Black yn ei geisio o ran y comisiwn hwnnw. Mae ymgysylltu adeiladol gyda Llywodraeth y DU yn un llwybr yr ydym yn ei geisio er mwyn gwneud yn iawn am y difrod a achosir gan doriadau i’n cyllideb gyfalaf.

Paul Davies, I think that it is important that I reassure you that we are using the European Investment Bank and supporting housing investment across Wales through the registered social landlords. Another useful source of finance support for small business investment in Wales is JEREMIE. In response to Mark Drakeford, I can assure you that there is no passive resistance. On Welsh housing bonds, let us learn more about the Quebec solidarity fund. I am sure that colleagues across the Chamber will recognise that. 

Paul Davies, yr wyf yn meddwl ei bod yn bwysig fy mod yn eich sicrhau ein bod yn defnyddio Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop ac yn cefnogi buddsoddiad mewn tai ledled Cymru drwy landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig. Ffynhonnell ddefnyddiol arall o gymorth ariannol ar gyfer buddsoddiad busnesau bach yng Nghymru yw JEREMIE. Mewn ymateb i Mark Drakeford, gallaf eich sicrhau nad oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad goddefol. Ar fondiau tai Cymru, gadewch i ni ddysgu mwy am gronfa gydsefyll Quebec. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd cyd-Aelodau ar draws y Siambr yn cydnabod hynny.

5.00 p.m.

We are taking a strategic approach. We are developing an infrastructure plan for Wales to optimise value for money through sound investment, to identify key strategic investment, to encourage inward investment and to improve delivery. That will bring together a range of stakeholders to scope and develop a 10-year dedicated plan to demonstrate that direction of travel alongside a rolling investment pipeline. So, the fact that we are taking these and other steps forward demonstrates that we are pursuing a wide range of initiatives to protect and support economic recovery in Wales. This debate can usefully add to taking forward this case for change. Diolch.

Rydym yn cymryd ymagwedd strategol. Yr ydym yn datblygu cynllun seilwaith i Gymru i sicrhau’r gwerth gorau posibl am arian drwy fuddsoddiad cadarn, i nodi buddsoddiad strategol allweddol, i annog mewnfuddsoddiad ac i wella’r cyflawni. Byddai hynny’n dwyn ynghyd amrywiaeth o randdeiliaid i gwmpasu ac i ddatblygu cynllun pwrpasol 10 mlynedd i ddangos y cyfeiriad hwnnw ochr yn ochr â phiblinell fuddsoddi treigl. Felly, mae’r ffaith ein bod ni’n cymryd y camau hyn ac eraill camau ymlaen yn dangos ein bod yn dilyn amrywiaeth eang o fentrau i ddiogelu a chefnogi adferiad economaidd yng Nghymru. Gall y ddadl hon ychwanegu at ddatblygu’r achos hwn ar gyfer newid. Diolch.

Alun Ffred Jones: Diolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu i’r ddadl hon sy’n mynd â ni i faes sy’n gwbl allweddol i deuluoedd ac, yn arbennig, pobl ifanc mewn trefi a phentrefi o Fôn i Fynwy. Mae Ieuan Wyn Jones a Mark Drakeford wedi tanlinellu ein bod yn byw mewn cyfnod o beryglon economaidd, ac mae’r rhybuddion yn glir. Os na fydd Llywodraethau’r byd yn cydweithio i greu a symbylu twf, byddwn yn wynebu dirwasgiad gwaeth na’r un yr ydym newydd ei brofi. Mae Aelodau hefyd wedi cyfeirio at rybudd yr IMF heddiw.

Alun Ffred Jones: I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate, which takes us into a crucial area for families and, especially, young people in towns and villages from Anglesey to Monmouthshire. Ieuan Wyn Jones and Mark Drakeford have underlined the fact that we are living in a period of economic dangers, and the warnings are clear. Unless global Governments collaborate to generate growth, we will be facing an even worse recession than the one that we have just experienced. Members have also referred to the warnings of the IMF today.

Y cwestiwn hollbwysig i ni yw: a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud popeth posibl i warchod swyddi a chreu gwaith o fewn y pwerau sydd ganddi? Hyd yma, ein barn ni ym Mhlaid Cymru yw nad oes tystiolaeth bendant bod hynny’n digwydd. Mae Ieuan wedi cyfeirio at yr angen i ddenu ffynonellau ariannu newydd er mwyn rhoi hwb i’r diwydiant adeiladu a gwella’r isadeiledd a gwasanaethau. Dyna oedd dadl Gerry Holtham cyn yr haf—dywedodd fod y diwydiant adeiladu yn cyflogi’n lleol, yn gweithredu’n eang ar draws Cymru, a’i fod yn cael effaith uniongyrchol. Dywedodd Ieuan a Mark Drakeford hefyd fod rhaid inni edrych am yr atebion hyn o fewn ein pwerau yng Nghymru ac na ddylem obeithio y bydd rhywbeth gwell yn dod o rywle arall. Yr oedd rhai o sylwadau’r Ceidwadwyr a’r Rhyddfrydwyr yn sôn am syniadau rywdro yn y dyfodol gan anwybyddu’r realiti sy’n wynebu ein pobl ifanc ni a gweithwyr ar hyd a lled Cymru.

The crucial question for us is whether the Welsh Government is doing everything possible within the powers that it holds to protect jobs and to create employment. To date, our opinion in Plaid Cymru is that there is no direct evidence that that is the case. Ieuan referred to the need to attract alternative funding sources in order to boost the construction industry and to improve the infrastructure and services. That was the case put forward by Gerry Holtham before the summer—he said that the construction industry employs locally, it works across the board in Wales and has a direct impact. Ieuan and Mark Drakeford also said that we need to look for these solutions within the powers that we have in Wales and that we should not be hoping that something better will come from elsewhere. Some of the comments made by the Conservatives and the Liberals were about ideas and concepts for the future, ignoring the reality that currently faces our young people and workers the length and breadth of Wales.

Yr wyf am gyfeirio’n fyr at yr angen i ddefnyddio ein pwerau caffael i hybu diwydiannau Cymru a chynyddu cyflogaeth. Mae’r Athro Kevin Morgan wedi dadlau yn gryf y gellid creu tua 4,000 o gyfleon cyflogaeth newydd bob blwyddyn—40,000 mewn 10 mlynedd—dim ond inni fod yn fwy doeth a chyfrwys wrth osod cytundebau yn y sector cyhoeddus. Fel y dywedodd Leanne Wood, mae contractau lleol yn cadw’r arian i gylchdroi o fewn y gymuned leol yn fwy effeithiol. Mae’r ffeithiau hyn yn wybyddus i bawb. Mae cyrff cyhoeddus yn gwario rhwng £3.5 biliwn a mwy na £4 biliwn bob blwyddyn ac, yn ôl y ffigurau diweddaraf, mae tua hanner y contractau hynny yn mynd i gwmnïau o Gymru. Mae’r cynnydd y cyfeiriwyd ato, sef y cynnydd yn nifer y contractau sy’n cael eu gosod i gwmnïau o Gymru o 35 y cant i tua 50 y cant, yn dda iawn ac yn rhywbeth i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, a yw cynnydd o 2 y cant y flwyddyn yn ddigon yn y sefyllfa yr ydym yn ei hwynebu? Yn fy marn i, yr ateb yw ‘na’. Mae Plaid Cymru’n dweud yn glir y dylem anelu at gael tri chwarter y contractau hynny yn mynd i gwmnïau o Gymru. Nid yw hynny’n meddwl—fel yr awgrymodd Mike Hedges—ein bod am i’r ffigur gyrraedd 100 y cant ac mai dim ond cwmnïau o Gymru ddylai gael contractau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r arian sydd gennym i hybu ein heconomi. Yr wyf yn derbyn bod cynnydd wedi digwydd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ond rhaid i ni newid gêr yn sylweddol yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni.

I want to refer briefly to the need to use our procurement powers to promote Welsh industry and to increase employment. Professor Kevin Morgan has argued robustly that some 4,000 new employment opportunities could be created per annum—40,000 in 10 years—if only we were wiser and cannier in awarding public sector contracts. As Leanne Wood said, locally awarded contracts keep the money circulating more effectively in the local community. These facts are well-known to all. Public bodies spend between £3.5 billion and just over £4 billion per annum and, according to the latest figures, around half of those contracts are awarded to companies from Wales. The increase that has been referred to—the increase in contracts awarded to companies from Wales from 35 per cent to some 50 per cent—is very positive and is to be welcomed. However, is the increase of 2 per cent per annum adequate in the situation that we currently face? The answer to that is ‘no’. Plaid Cymru is saying clearly that we should aim to have three quarters of contracts being awarded to companies from Wales. That does not mean, as Mike Hedges suggested, that we want that figure to reach 100 per cent and that only companies from Wales should receive contracts. However, we have to use the money available to promote our economy. I accept that there has been an increase in the past few years, but we need to change gear quite quickly given the situation that we are facing.

Nid oes gennyf amser i drafod yr holl sylwadau sydd wedi cael eu gwneud heddiw, ond hoffwn sôn am sylwadau Nick Ramsay am ddiwygio Barnett. Mae hynny yn iawn, ond os ydych yn sôn am gyfnod o flwyddyn, dwy flynedd neu dair blynedd, nid yw’r math hwnnw o amser gennym, yn anffodus, yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni.

I do not have enough time to discuss all the comments that have been made today, but I will mention Nick Ramsay’s comments on the reform of Barnett. That would be great, but if you are looking at a period of a year or two or three, that sort of time is not available to us, unfortunately, in the situation that currently exists.

There are several challenges in terms of public procurement, not least some of the European Union directives that are certainly deliberately stringent, but are not insurmountable. The tough economic climate means that big companies are looking for smaller contracts that they would have ignored in the past. There is no doubt that depleted budgets often drive public bodies to take on the cheapest option regardless, and regardless means no local labour or suppliers, and possibly inferior materials or services as well. One weakness is the lack of expertise in the public sector; there is one estimate that only about 130 public sector managers have the proper professional qualifications. There is a skills deficit there that needs to be addressed.

Ceir nifer o heriau o ran caffael gyhoeddus, yn enwedig rhai o gyfarwyddebau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd sydd, yn sicr, yn fwriadol llym, ond nad ydynt yn anorchfygol. Mae’r hinsawdd economaidd anodd yn golygu bod cwmnïau mawr yn chwilio am gontractau llai y byddent wedi’u hanwybyddu yn y gorffennol. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth bod cyllidebau sydd wedi’u disbyddu yn aml yn achosi i gyrff cyhoeddus i fanteisio ar yr opsiwn rhataf waeth beth, a mae ‘waeth beth’ yn golygu nad oes unrhyw lafur na chyflenwyr lleol, na deunyddiau neu gwasanaethau israddol, o bosibl, yn ogystal. Un gwendid yw’r diffyg arbenigedd yn y sector cyhoeddus; ceir un amcangyfrif bod gan dim ond tua 130 o reolwyr sector cyhoeddus y cymwysterau proffesiynol priodol. Ceir diffyg sgiliau yno sydd angen sylw.

Simon Thomas made a persuasive case for lowering VAT and possibly targeting that reduction at certain areas, which can make a difference within a short period of time.

Cyflwynodd Simon Thomas ddadl argyhoeddiadol ar gyfer gostwng TAW ac o bosibl targedu’r gostyngiad hwnnw at rai ardaloedd penodol, sy’n gallu gwneud gwahaniaeth o fewn cyfnod byr o amser.

In terms of the amendments, amendment 1 in the name of William Graham that aims to delete ‘the severe cuts in capital funding’ is clearly a case of dodging an unpalatable fact. Peter Black tried to blame Alistair Darling, who in turn blames Gordon Brown. This may be true, but he is also guilty of avoiding the stark facts.

 O ran y gwelliannau, mae gwelliant 1 yn enw William Graham, sy’n ceisio dileu ‘y toriadau difrifol mewn cyllid cyfalaf’ yn amlwg yn achos o osgoi’r ffaith annymunol. Ceisiodd Peter Black roi’r bai ar Alistair Darling, sydd yn ei dro’n beio Gordon Brown. Gall hyn fod yn wir, ond mae hefyd yn euog o osgoi’r ffeithiau moel.

Amendment 3 in the name of Jane Hutt is a clever one and concerns deleting the words ‘lack of’ in relation to action. The whole point of this debate is that there has been a lack of action. [Laughter.] Therefore, I am sorry, but I have to reject it. [Interruption.] It was a nice try. We also reject amendments 4 and 5. 

Mae gwelliant 3 yn enw Jane Hutt yn un glyfar ynghylch dileu’r geiriau ‘diffyg’ o ran gweithredu. Holl bwynt y ddadl hon yw y bu diffyg gweithredu. [Chwerthin.] Felly, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond rhaid imi ei wrthod. [Torri ar draws.] Roedd yn ymgais dda. Yr ydym hefyd yn gwrthod gwelliannau 4 a 5.

We reluctantly accept amendment 6 in the name of Peter Black. It is a typical Liberal amendment that calls for us to work with the process. I think that many people out there would say that we are too obsessed with process in this place, and that what is needed in this case is action.

Yr ydym yn derbyn, o’n hanfodd, gwelliant 6 yn enw Peter Black. Mae’n welliant Rhyddfrydol nodweddiadol sy’n galw am inni weithio gyda’r broses. Credaf y byddai llawer o bobl allan yna yn dweud bod gennym ormod o obsesiwn gyda phroses yn y lle hwn, a’r hyn sydd angen yn yr achos hwn yw gweithredu.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment.  Does any Member object? I see that there are objections. I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A yw unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiadau. Byddaf yn gohirio’r pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives Debate

Llywodraeth Leol
Local Government

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, amendment 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, gwelliant 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 3, 4 a 5 yn enw Peter Black.

Cynnig NDM4799 William Graham

Motion NDM4799 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn mynegi pryder ynghylch y diffyg tryloywder gan Lywodraeth Cymru ynghylch dyfodol llywodraeth leol;

1. Expresses concern about the lack of transparency from the Welsh Government regarding the future of local government;

2. Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd bod llywodraeth leol yn rhan sylfaenol o ddemocratiaeth yng Nghymru; a

2. Recognises the importance of local government as being fundamental to democracy in Wales; and

3. Yn galw am ddadl lawn ac agored ynghylch cyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

3. Calls for a full and open debate on the delivery of public services.

Janet Finch-Saunders: I move the motion.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

I take great pleasure in opening this debate and proposing the motion as above. I believe that the time has come for a much wider debate across Wales to include all stakeholders and service users so that we can achieve a level of democratic and transparent corporate governance for each of our local authorities and communities. However, there is a huge sense of demoralisation and concern across Wales regarding the future prospects for local authorities, and the lack of clarity around the expectations placed on them.

Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf agor y ddadl hon a chynnig y cynnig fel y nodir uchod. Credaf fod yr amser wedi dod ar gyfer trafodaeth lawer ehangach ledled Cymru i gynnwys holl randdeiliaid a defnyddwyr gwasanaeth fel y gallwn gyflawni lefel o lywodraethu corfforaethol democrataidd a thryloyw ar gyfer pob un o’n hawdurdodau lleol a’n cymunedau. Fodd bynnag, ceir ymdeimlad mawr o ddigalondid a phryder ledled Cymru ynghylch y rhagolygon ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol, a diffyg eglurder ynghylch y disgwyliadau sydd arnynt.

Local authorities are facing an ever-greater degree of financial cutbacks and efficiency savings like never before, while attempting to work across their natural borders as part of the collaboration agenda. This has not been helped in the slightest by the bombshell news that came forward as part of the recent announcement of the Cabinet blueprint report, ‘Public Service Reform: Promoting Regional Coherence’. While we would all agree that greater collaboration, sharing services and seeking the best models for efficiency are crucial, the Welsh Government must not be allowed to radically reorganise our councils without the level of democratic discussion and debate that our partners and residents across Wales deserve at the very least.

Mae awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu mwy fyth o doriadau ariannol ac arbedion effeithlonrwydd fel nag erioed o’r blaen, tra’n ceisio gweithio ar draws eu ffiniau naturiol fel rhan o’r agenda gydweithredu. Nid yw hyn wedi’i helpu yn y lleiaf gan y newyddion taranfollt a ddaeth gerbron fel rhan o gyhoeddiad diweddar adroddiad glasbrint y Cabinet, ‘Diwygio Gwasanaeth Cyhoeddus: Hyrwyddo Cysoni Rhanbarthol’. Er y byddem oll yn cytuno bod mwy o gydweithredu, rhannu gwasanaethau a chwilio am y modelau gorau ar gyfer effeithlonrwydd yn hollbwysig, rhaid peidio â gadael Llywodraeth Cymru i ad-drefnu ein cynghorau mewn ffordd radical heb o leiaf y lefel o drafodaeth ddemocrataidd a’r ddadl y mae ein partneriaid a’n trigolion ledled Cymru yn ei haeddu.

Many councils are already leading the way on the collaboration agenda, working together to bring about sustainable, well-planned services within a lean and efficient framework. Others have already spent precious local resources working with other partners to look at scoping studies to find a realistic and effective approach to collaboration in its true sense. This recent undermining of the work undertaken thus far, together with the sledgehammer approach taken by the Minister, is further evidence that the Welsh Government is not as committed to the localism agenda as it professes. It still believes that a top-down approach is best.

Mae nifer o gynghorau eisoes yn arwain y ffordd ar yr agenda gydweithredu, ac yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd i sicrhau gwasanaethau cynaliadwy, sydd wedi’u cynllunio’n dda o fewn fframwaith darbodus ac effeithlon. Mae eraill eisoes wedi gwario adnoddau lleol gwerthfawr yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid eraill i edrych ar astudiaethau cwmpasu i ddod o hyd i ymagwedd realistig ac effeithiol i gydweithredu yn ei wir ystyr. Mae’r tanseilio diweddar hwn o’r gwaith a wnaed hyd yn hyn, ynghyd â’r dull anaddas a gymerwyd gan y Gweinidog, yn dystiolaeth bellach nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru mor ymrwymedig i’r agenda lleoliaeth ag y mae’n ei honni. Mae’n dal i gredu mai’r dull o weithredu o’r brig i lawr yw’r gorau.

This can be seen with the ever-increasing amount of hypothecated grants. Last year, there was a £38.5 million increase, so there is £765 million-worth of hypothecated funding. Is that not control at its best? On 15 February, the current Minister for Local Government and Communities—yes, I said ‘local’ and I said ‘communities’—stated that:

Mae hyn i’w weld yn y swm cynyddol o grantiau sydd wedi’u neilltuo. Y llynedd, cafwyd cynnydd o £38.5 miliwn, felly mae gwerth £765 miliwn o arian wedi’i neilltuo. Onid yw hynny’n rheolaeth ar ei gorau? Ar 15 Chwefror, fe wnaeth y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau presennol—ie, dywedais ‘lleol’ a dywedais ‘cymunedau’— ddatgan:

‘I am not prepared to give free rein regarding the funding and to give everything to local government when we know that it would not deliver the services for which we hypothecate funding…That is not something that my ministerial colleagues and I want to see.’

Nid wyf yn barod i roi rhwydd hynt ynghylch y cyllid a rhoi popeth i lywodraeth leol pan fyddwn yn gwybod na fyddai’n darparu’r gwasanaethau yr ydym yn neilltuo cyllid ar eu cyfer...Nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth y mae fy nghyd-Weinidogion a minnau am ei weld.

That is again rather a controlling and damning statement. The regional Member for North Wales Mark Isherwood AM said during the last debate on this in the Chamber:

Unwaith eto, datganiad rheolaethol a damniol yw hynny. Dywedodd yr Aelod rhanbarthol ar gyfer Gogledd Cymru, Mark Isherwood, yn ystod y ddadl ddiwethaf ar hyn yn y Siambr:

‘We must empower rather than overpower local people, giving them a say in the running of public services.’

‘Rhaid inni rymuso pobl leol yn hytrach na’u llethu, gan roi llais iddynt wrth redeg gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.’

That is as true today as it was then, yet the Minister now feels that he can single-handedly reorganise local government by stealth, allowing our stakeholders to feel disengaged, remote and centrally controlled by the Welsh Labour Government in Cardiff. In the recent Assembly elections, all the political parties professed to support and signed up to the localism agenda, yet here we are again, asking the Welsh Labour Government not to renege on those pre-election promises by seeking to control and dominate our local communities with its ideological, political dogma that is now in danger of destroying those very principles.

Mae hynny’r un mor wir heddiw ag yr oedd ar y pryd, ac eto mae’r Gweinidog bellach yn teimlo y gall, ar ei liwt ei hunain, ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn llechwraidd, yn caniatáu i’n rhanddeiliaid i deimlo’n ddatgyweddog, yn anghysbell ac fel petai y rheolir yn ganolog gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru yng Nghaerdydd. Yn etholiadau diweddar y Cynulliad, roedd yr holl bleidiau gwleidyddol yn honni eu cefnogaeth ac ymrwymiad i’r agenda lleoliaeth, eto dyma ni unwaith eto, yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru i beidio â thorri’r addewidion hynny a wnaed cyn yr etholiad gan geisio rheoli a dominyddu ar ein cymunedau lleol gyda’i dogma gwleidyddol, ideolegol sydd bellach mewn perygl o ddinistrio’r union egwyddorion hynny.

If we look at the localism agenda that is already enriching service delivery across England, we see that there is greater consumer engagement as a result of a more transparent and accountable approach. The principle that requires councils to publish all items of expenditure over £500 is a fine example of greater transparency and accountability. At the same time, it is opening up the tender processes so that smaller local contractors can step up to the mark. It is an innovation that is not as yet advocated by the Welsh Labour Government, but it is seen in Wales at the two Welsh Conservative-led councils in Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan. Those councils are to be commended for their innovative and inclusive approach.

Os edrychwn ar yr agenda lleoliaeth sydd eisoes yn cyfoethogi cyflenwi gwasanaethau ar draws Lloegr, gwelwn fod mwy o ymgysylltiad defnyddwyr o ganlyniad i ddull mwy tryloyw ac atebol. Mae’r egwyddor sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gynghorau gyhoeddi pob eitem o wariant dros £500 yn enghraifft wych o fwy o dryloywder ac atebolrwydd. Ar yr un pryd, mae’n agor i fyny’r prosesau tendro fel bod contractwyr lleol llai yn gallu ymateb i’r her. Mae’n enghraifft o arloesi nad argymhellir gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru eto, ond fe’i gwelir yng Nghymru yn y ddau gyngor dan arweiniad Ceidwadwyr Cymru yng Nghasnewydd a Bro Morgannwg. Mae’r cynghorau hynny i’w canmol am eu dull arloesol a chynhwysol.

The Welsh Conservatives are keen to empower our local authorities, our stakeholders and our service users across Wales to work together with a purposeful direction and vision.

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn awyddus i rymuso ein hawdurdodau lleol, ein rhanddeiliaid a defnyddwyr ein gwasanaethau ledled Cymru i gydweithio â gweledigaeth a chyfeiriad pwrpasol.

Mike Hedges rose—

Mike Hedges a gododd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I do not think that the Member intends to give way during this speech.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Nid wyf yn credu bod yr Aelod yn bwriadu ildio yn ystod yr araith hon.

Janet Finch-Saunders: We also want to see collective responsibility for delivering citizen-based priorities and services as opposed to the current culture of Cardiff-centric pressure and control that has now almost become the trademark of the Welsh devolution process. A true and meaningful Welsh devolution is one that sets free the true spirit of localism, so that it rests firmly with those that all of us seek to serve in our communities the length and breadth of Wales. As a councillor, I have a great deal of respect for our local councils and councillors across Wales. For years, they have been at the front line and the very heart of Welsh local democracy. We should do our best to work with them as we bring about change. These local authorities are also about people and the thousands of good men and women dedicated to providing the best-quality services day in, day out, often supporting the most vulnerable members of our communities, while, at the same time, facing an ever-increasing level of bureaucracy, regulation and diktat that often emanates from here.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Hoffwn weld hefyd cyfrifoldeb ar y cyd ar gyfer darparu blaenoriaethau a darparwyd ar sail y dinesydd yn hytrach na’r diwylliant presennol o bwysau a rheolaeth sydd â Chaerdydd yn ganolbwynt iddynt ac sydd bellach bron yn nod masnach y broses ddatganoli. Mae datganoli Cymru wir ac ystyrlon yn un sy’n rhyddhau gwir ysbryd lleoliaeth, fel ei bod yn aros yn gadarn gyda’r rhai y mae pob un ohonom yn ceisio gwasanaethu yn ein cymunedau ar hyd a lled Cymru. Fel cynghorydd, mae gennyf lawer o barch at ein cynghorau lleol a chynghorwyr ledled Cymru. Ers blynyddoedd, maent wedi bod ar y rheng flaen ac wrth wraidd democratiaeth leol Cymru. Dylem wneud ein gorau i weithio gyda nhw wrth inni beri newid. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol hyn hefyd ynglŷn â phobl ac mae miloedd o ddynion a menywod da sy’n ymroddedig i ddarparu gwasanaethau o’r ansawdd gorau o ddydd i ddydd, yn aml yn cefnogi aelodau mwyaf bregus ein cymunedau, tra, ar yr un pryd, yn wynebu lefel gynyddol o fiwrocratiaeth, rheoleiddio a dictad sy’n aml yn deillio o’r fan hon.

The Welsh Labour Government’s obsession with centralisation and standardisation fails to recognise the differing needs and aspirations of local communities across Wales. In particular, the Minister’s proposals to move towards a common collaborative structure based on police boundaries and local health boards are both impractical and unrealistic. They are further compounded by the Government’s aim, as described in the forthcoming collaborative measures Bill, to force those councils already working across the board to share services to do even more. Yesterday, there was some discussion about trade unions and their members, but I ask the Minister as to whether, prior to July, he has entered into dialogue with those trade unions, their members and all council employees about his proposals to merge local authorities by stealth. Any reorganisation of local government would involve redundancies and it is crucial, therefore, that a full public consultation and engagement process is held.

Mae obsesiwn Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru â chanoli a safoni yn methu â chydnabod y gwahanol anghenion a dyheadau cymunedau lleol ledled Cymru. Yn benodol, mae cynigion y Gweinidog i symud tuag at strwythur cydweithredol cyffredin yn seiliedig ar ffiniau’r heddlu a byrddau iechyd lleol yn anymarferol ac yn afrealistig. Maent wedi’u cymhlethu ymhellach gan nod y Llywodraeth, fel y disgrifir yn y Bil mesurau cydlafurio sydd ar y gweill, i orfodi’r cynghorau hynny sydd eisoes yn gweithio ar draws y bwrdd i rannu gwasanaethau i wneud hyd yn oed mwy. Ddoe, cafwyd peth trafodaeth am undebau llafur a’u haelodau, ond gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog os yw ef, cyn mis Gorffennaf, wedi dechrau trafod gyda’r undebau llafur hynny, eu haelodau a holl weithwyr y cyngor am ei gynigion i uno awdurdodau lleol yn llechwraidd. Byddai unrhyw ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn golygu diswyddiadau ac mae’n hollbwysig, felly, y cynhelir proses ymgynghori ac ymgysylltu cyhoeddus llawn.

5.15 p.m.

My colleague Peter Black AM has asked—[Interruption.]

Mae fy nghydweithiwr Peter Black AC wedi gofyn— [Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Please settle down. I am sure that we are all colleagues in the Chamber, although we may belong to different political traditions.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Setlwch, os gwelwch yn dda. Rwy’n siŵr ein bod ni gyd yn gydweithwyr yn y Siambr, er ein bod yn perthyn i draddodiadau gwleidyddol gwahanol.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Peter Black AM has asked for there to be an informed and inclusive debate on how we go forward and on the best model to sustain the changes that are needed. I second that call to the Minister and to the Welsh Labour Government. Let us do it, but let us do it in such a way that seeks to challenge, engage, discuss and debate with stakeholders and services users across the whole of Wales. I say ‘we’; as a member of the opposition, and like our new leader Andrew R.T. Davies AM, we will offer a constructive and mature approach to opposition, and not opposition for the sake of it. We want to be part of those changes but there has to be full engagement with everybody across Wales. Members, I move the motion and ask for your support.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae Peter Black AC wedi gofyn am ddadl hyddysg a chynhwysol am sut rydym yn symud ymlaen ac ar y model gorau i gynnal y newidiadau sydd eu hangen. Rwy’n eilio’r galw hwnnw i’r Gweinidog ac i Lywodraeth Cymru. Gadewch i ni wneud hynny, ond mewn ffordd sy’n ceisio herio, ymgysylltu, trafod a dadlau gyda rhanddeiliaid a defnyddwyr gwasanaeth ledled Cymru. Rwyf yn dweud ‘ni’; fel aelod o’r wrthblaid, ac fel ein harweinydd newydd Andrew R.T. Davies AC, byddwn yn cynnig bod yn wrthblaid adeiladol ac aeddfed, ac nid yn wrthblaid er ei mwyn ei hun. Rydym am fod yn rhan o’r newidiadau hynny ond mae’n rhaid ymgysylltu’n llawn gyda phawb ar draws Cymru. Aelodau, cynigiaf y cynnig a gofynnaf am eich cefnogaeth.

Gwelliant 1 Jane Hutt

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt

Dileu pwynt 1 a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete point 1 and replace with:

Yn nodi’r cyfarwyddyd clir a roddwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru i lywodraeth leol, gan gynnwys yn y Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol ym mis Gorffennaf ac yn natganiad ysgrifenedig y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau i’r Cynulliad ar 13 Gorffennaf 2011.

Notes the clear direction provided by the Welsh Government to local government, including at the Local Government Partnership Council in July and in the Minister for Local Government and Communities’ written statement to the Assembly of 13 July 2011.

The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): I move amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 2 Jocelyn Davies

Amendment 2 Jocelyn Davies

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ôl pwynt 2 ac ail-rifo’r pwyntiau sy’n dilyn:

Add new point after point 2 and renumber accordingly:

Yn cydnabod y pwysau sylweddol a roddir ar lywodraeth leol o ganlyniad i’r toriadau mewn cyllid a orfodwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU.

Recognises the severe pressures placed on local government due to funding cuts imposed by the UK Government.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I move amendment 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Mae’n bleser cael cynnig y gwelliant hwn gan fy mod yn credu ei fod yn eithriadol o bwysig. Mae’n gosod y ddadl hon o fewn y cyd-destun priodol, sef bod toriadau llym yn cael eu gweithredu’n gyflym iawn gan y Llywodraeth glymblaid yn y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n cael effaith andwyol ar ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau ac ar gyllidebau llywodraeth leol ledled Cymru—yn enwedig y toriad o 42 y cant mewn cyllid cyfalaf. Bydd yn cael effaith enfawr ar gynlluniau pob adran o lywodraeth leol i ddatblygu gwasanaethau hollbwysig mewn meysydd fel addysg.

It is a pleasure to move this amendment, because I believe that it is extremely important. It sets the right context for this debate: huge cuts are being implemented very quickly by the UK coalition Government, which are having a detrimental effect on service provision and on local government budgets across Wales—especially the 42 per cent cut in capital funding. That will have a huge impact on the plans of all local government departments to develop vital services in areas such as education.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r cynnig hwn. Yr wyf yn credu ei fod yn amserol, ac, o edrych ar eiriad y cynnig, mae’n anodd anghytuno ag ef. Nid yw’n orfeirniadol o fwriadau’r Gweinidog, ac nid wyf i am fod yn orfeirniadol ychwaith. Y broblem yw nad ydym yn gwybod beth yw bwriadau’r Gweinidog. Mae wedi rhoi ambell enghraifft ac wedi beirniadu ambell awdurdod—yn ddiddorol iawn, dim un awdurdod Llafur. Nid wyf yn gwybod, Weinidog, a oes rheswm am hynny. A ydych yn dweud wrthym fod yr holl awdurdodau sy’n cael eu harwain gan y Blaid Lafur—nid  oes llawer ohonynt erbyn hyn, wrth reswm—yn berffaith? Yng nghyd-destun y math o feirniadaeth yr ydych wedi ei gwneud o awdurdodau lleol mewn perthynas â phenodi uwch-swyddogion, beth am gyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf yn penodi cyfarwyddwr addysg ac yn cynyddu’r cyflog o £21,000? Ai dyna’r math o benodiadau yr ydych yn dymuno eu gweld? Ai dim ond awdurdodau sy’n cael eu harwain gan y Blaid Lafur sy’n cael rhwydd hynt i wneud pethau felly, tra bod awdurdodau eraill, lle mae pleidiau eraill mewn grym, yn cael eu beirniadu’n weddol hallt?

I welcome this motion. I believe that it is timely, and it is difficult to disagree with its wording. It is not overly critical of the Minister’s intentions, and I have no desire to be overly critical. The problem is that we do not know what the Minister’s intentions are. He has given an example or two and has criticised some authorities—but interestingly, no Labour authorities. I do not know, Minister, whether there is a reason for that. Are you telling us that all the authorities in Labour control—they are, of course, few and far between—are perfect? In the context of the kind of criticism that you have made of local authorities for appointing senior officers, what about Rhondda Cynon Taf’s decision to appoint a director of education with an increase of £21,000 in salary? Is that the kind of appointment that you want to see? Are Labour-run authorities the only ones to be given carte blanche to do that sort of thing, while other authorities, run by other parties, are to be harshly criticised?

Beth yn union yw eich bwriad yn y pen draw o ran y math o newidiadau yr ydych am eu gweld mewn llywodraeth leol? Dyna’r broblem sydd gennym mewn perthynas â’r datganiadau yr ydych wedi bod yn eu gwneud. Nid ydym ni, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru nac arweinyddion cynghorau ledled Cymru yn deall beth yw eich bwriad chi yn y pen draw. A ydych am uno gwasanaethau, hybu cydweithredu trawsffiniol—nid wyf yn credu y byddai unrhyw un yn anghytuno â hynny yn y sefyllfa ariannol sy’n ein hwynebu—neu ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn gyfan gwbl? Dyma eich cyfle i ddweud wrthym. Os ydych yn bwriadu gwneud hynny, mae’n bwysig eich bod yn onest gyda ni ac yn dweud wrthym mai dyna’r bwriad a sut yr ydych yn mynd i wneud hynny a’r amserlen ar gyfer hynny.

What is your ultimate intention with regard to the kinds of changes that you want to see in local government? That is the problem that we have with the statements that you have been making. We, the Welsh Local Government Association and council leaders across Wales do not understand what you intend to do. Do you want to merge services, promote cross-boundary co-operation—I do not believe that anyone would oppose that, given the current economic climate—or completely reorganise local government? This is your opportunity to tell us. If that is your intention, it is important that you are honest with us, telling us that that is what you want to do and explaining how you are going to go about doing it, and to what timetable.

Os mai sôn yn unig a wnewch am gydweithredu a chyfuno gwasanaethau a chyfrifoldebau uwch-swyddogion, a allwch esbonio sut yr ydych yn bwriadu gwneud hynny? Byddai gennych broblemau daearyddol a gwleidyddol yn hynny o beth. A ydych mewn gwirionedd yn awgrymu y dylai swyddogion fod yn atebol i ddau awdurdod ag arweinyddiaeth wleidyddol wahanol? Byddai problemau ymarferol wedyn yn wynebu’r swyddogion hynny. Beth am swyddog sy’n gorfod ymateb i ddau awdurdod sydd â syniadau gwahanol ynglŷn â darparu gwasanaethau? Sut y gellir cyfuno’r cyfrifoldebau hynny? Nid ydych wedi esbonio hyn inni, Weinidog, a dyna’r broblem. Dyna’n sicr pam na allwn gefnogi gwelliant 1, sydd wedi’i gyflwyno yn enw Jane Hutt.

If you are only talking about collaboration and merging services and senior-officer responsibilities, can you explain how you intend to do it? You would face geographical and political difficulties in doing so. Are you seriously suggesting that officers should be accountable to two authorities with different political leadership? Those officers would face practical problems. What about officers having to respond to two authorities with different ideas about service provision? How could those responsibilities be brought together? You have not explained that to us, Minister, and that is the problem. That is certainly why we are unable to support amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Nid yw’r Llywodraeth wedi rhoi unrhyw arweiniad ar y mater hwn, ac nid oes eglurder, felly nid ydym yn deall beth yr ydych yn bwriadu ei wneud, Weinidog. Fel y dywedais, pe baech yn dweud wrthym beth yr ydych yn bwriadu ei wneud, mae’n bosibl y byddech yn cael ein cefnogaeth. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, mae eich bwriadau yn y pen draw yn ddirgelwch llwyr. Efallai y dylech gymryd ychydig o arweiniad oddi wrth y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau—o leiaf mae pawb yn gwybod beth y mae’n bwriadu ei wneud; nid yw pawb yn cytuno â’r hyn y mae’n bwriadu ei wneud, ond mae pawb yn gwybod beth y mae’n bwriadu ei wneud, ac mae’n glir iawn ynglŷn â hynny. Mae’r eglurder hwnnw yn hollbwysig.

The Government has provided no leadership on this issue, and there is no clarity, so we do not understand what your intentions are, Minister. As I said, if you told us what you intend to do, it is possible that we would support you. However, as it stands, your ultimate intention is a mystery. You should, perhaps, take a leaf out of the Minister for Education and Skills’ book—everyone at least knows what he intends to do; not everyone agrees with what he intends to do, but everyone knows what that is, and he is very clear about that. That clarity is vital.

Fel y dywedais, nid oes gennyf broblem â chefnogi’r cynnig hwn fel ag y mae—yn enwedig ar ôl iddo gael ei wella gan welliant 2—ond ni fyddem yn ei gefnogi os yw gwelliant 1 yn llwyddo. Nid wyf am siarad am y gwelliannau eraill, o ran cwrteisi, er mwyn caniatáu i’r bobl sydd wedi’u cynnig eu hesbonio imi. Byddwn felly’n penderfynu ar y diwedd sut y byddwn ni fel grŵp yn ymateb.

As I said, I have no problem with supporting this motion as it stands—especially amended in line with amendment 2—but we would not support it if amendment 1 is agreed. I will not speak to the other amendments; I will allow the people moving those amendments the courtesy of explaining them to me. We will, therefore, decide at the end how we, as a group, respond.

Gwelliant 3 Peter Black

Amendment 3 Peter Black

Ym mhwynt 3, ar ôl ‘gwasanaethau cyhoeddus’ rhoi ‘sy’n cynnwys trafodaeth am ad-drefnu a’r gwasanaethau y tu allan i lywodraeth leol fel iechyd, addysg uwch ac addysg bellach, trafnidiaeth a datblygu economaidd a chymunedol’.

In point 3, after ‘public services’ insert ‘which includes discussion about reorganisation and services outside local government such as health, higher and further education, transport and community and economic development’.

Gwelliant 4 Peter Black

Amendment 4 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at end of motion:

Yn dal yn bryderus am y pwerau a roddwyd i Weinidogion Cymru i uno awdurdodau lleol drwy is-ddeddfwriaeth.

Remains concerned about the powers granted to the Welsh Ministers to amalgamate local authorities through subordinate legislation.

Gwelliant 5 Peter Black

Amendment 5 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at end of motion:

Yn mynegi pryder am y posibilrwydd o sefydlu chwe grŵp rhanbarthol o awdurdodau lleol yn ogystal â phedwar grŵp addysg rhanbarthol.

Expresses concern about the possible implementation of six local authority regional groups in addition to four regional education groups.

Peter Black: I move amendments 3, 4 and 5 in my name.

Peter Black: Cynigiaf welliannau 3, 4 a 5 yn fy enw i.

This motion is one of the more intriguing that we have had in front of us today, because it gives us an opportunity to debate one of the controversies of the summer recess. I would, therefore, like to thank my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing it to the Chamber today. [Laughter.] I also thank my colleague Carl Sargeant, who will no doubt be responding to it. [Laughter.]

Y cynnig hwn yw un o’r rhai mwy diddorol a gawsom ger ein bron heddiw, gan ei fod yn rhoi cyfle i ni drafod un o bynciau llosg gwyliau’r haf. Hoffwn felly ddiolch i fy nghydweithiwr Janet Finch-Saunders am ddod ag ef i’r Siambr heddiw. [Chwerthin.] Diolch hefyd i fy nghydweithiwr Carl Sargeant, a fydd, yn ddiamau, yn ymateb iddo. [Chwerthin.]

One of the problems with reorganising local government by stealth is that, often, your Cabinet colleagues miss the subtleties of your intentions. I am sure that Carl is not accused of subtlety too often—I certainly am not—but, in this particular case, he has managed to confuse a lot of people with what he has put forward. First, we had a Cabinet paper, which led to some headlines over the summer recess, in which the Minister proposed that we set up collaborative organisational groups—six of them in all across Wales. However, how does that tie in with the four consortia that the Minister for Education and Skills has brought forward, which are set on different boundaries and proposes that education authorities collaborate on the basis of those boundaries? Therefore, straight away, we have two conflicting signals coming from the Welsh Government with regard to how it expects local councils to collaborate. On the one hand, the Minister for education is saying that he wants collaboration on the basis of, in the case of some of the authorities in my region, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Neath Port Talbot, Pembrokeshire, Powys and Swansea, and then, on the other hand, the Minister for Local Government and Communities is saying that all future collaboration by local councils should be on a different boundary, which, in my case, would be Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend. It is no wonder that local government leaders and officers have been in a state of confusion as to what is coming out of this Welsh Government.

Un o’r problemau gydag ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn llechwraidd yw bod eich cydweithwyr yn y Cabinet yn aml ddim yn sylwi ar gynildeb eich bwriadau. Nid wyf yn siŵr bod Carl yn cael ei gyhuddo yn aml iawn o fod yn gynnil—yn sicr, nid wyf i—ond, yn yr achos hwn, llwyddodd i ddrysu llawer o bobl gyda’r hyn y mae wedi ei gyflwyno. I ddechrau, cawsom bapur Cabinet, a arweiniodd at ambell i bennawd dros doriad yr haf, lle cynigiodd y Gweinidog ein bod yn sefydlu grwpiau sefydliadol ar y cyd—chwech ohonynt i gyd ar draws Cymru. Fodd bynnag, sut mae hynny yn cydfynd â’r pedwar consortia a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau, sy’n seiliedig ar ffiniau gwahanol ac sy’n cynnig bod awdurdodau addysg yn cydweithio ar sail y ffiniau hynny? Felly, yn syth bin, mae gennym ddau neges sy’n gwrthddweud ei gilydd gan Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â sut mae’n disgwyl i gynghorau lleol gydweithio. Ar un llaw, dywed y Gweinidog addysg ei fod eisiau gweld cydweithio ar sail, yn achos rhai o’r awdurdodau yn fy rhanbarth i, Sir Caerfyrddin, Ceredigion, Castell Nedd Port Talbot, Penfro, Powys ac Abertawe, ac yna, ar y llaw arall, dywed y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Cymunedau y dylai bob cydweithio yn y dyfodol fod yn seiliedig ar ffin wahanol, a fyddai, yn fy achos i, Abertawe, Castell Nedd Port Talbot a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Nid yw’n syndod bod arweinwyr a swyddogion llywodraeth leol wedi bod mewn dryswch ynglŷn â’r negeseuon a ddaw gan y Llywodraeth Cymru hon.

I have described this state of confusion as ‘floundering in the dark’, and it appears that that is exactly what the Welsh Government is doing in this instance. It seems to me that, for all this talk of collaboration and all the messages coming out of the Welsh Government, what it is really saying is that it wants to reorganise local government, but that it does not have the guts to say so or the chutzpah to put forward a set of proposals for debate and discussion. Let us have that debate and discussion and a set of proposals, so that we can see what your real intentions are in relation to local government.

Yr wyf wedi disgrifio’r dryswch hwn fel ‘ymbalfalu yn y tywyllwch’, ac mae’n edrych yn debyg mai dyna yn union mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud yn yr achos hwn. Mae’n edrych i mi, er gwaetha’r holl sôn yma am gydweithio a’r holl negeseuon a ddaw gan Llywodraeth Cymru, mai beth mae’n ddweud go iawn yw ei fod eisiau ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, ond nad yw’n ddigon dewr i ddweud hynny nag yn ddigon eofn i ddod â chyfres o gynigion gerbron i’w dadlau a’u trafod. Gadewch i ni gael y ddadl a’r drafodaeth honno a chyfres o gynigion, fel ein bod yn gallu gweld beth yw eich bwriadau go iawn o ran llywodraeth leol.

Even on the collaboration agenda, the Minister is floundering in the dark. Not so long ago he was criticising Conwy County Borough Council because, he said, it would not appoint a joint chief executive. As a councillor in Swansea, I want my chief executive to devote 60 or 70 hours a week to ensuring that that council works effectively and efficiently. It is not possible, in my view, to have a chief executive with two masters, working for two local authorities, and to two different agendas—especially when those authorities are not in the same political control, and take different approaches. If you want a chief executive to control two local authorities, then merge the local authorities. Say that, if that is what you want. You cannot do this on a superficial level. If you want collaboration, let us have real collaboration—for example, along the lines of the Gwent frailty project, which is partly funded by the Welsh Government, with £9 million going in last year to make it work. That does not just involve collaboration between local councils, but also with the health service, and that is what seems to be missing when you talk about this. You talk about collaboration between local councils, but you never say that we should be collaborating with the health service, or other Welsh Government departments—you never talk about joint appointments or mergers in those areas, and ensuring proper value for the public money that is being spent.

Mae’r Gweinidog hyd yn oed yn ymbalfalu yn y tywyllwch ar yr agenda cydweithio. Ddim mor hir a hynny yn ôl, roedd yn beirniadu Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy oherwydd, meddai, nid oedd am benodi prif weithredwr ar y cyd. Fel cynghorydd yn Abertawe, rwyf eisiau i fy mhrif weithredwr i ymroi 60 neu 70 awr yr wythnos er mwyn sicrhau bod y cyngor yn gweithio yn effeithiol ac effeithlon. Nid yw’n bosibl, hyd y gwelaf i, i gael prif weithredwr gyda dau feistr, yn gweithio i ddau awdurdod lleol, ac i ddau agenda wahanol—yn enwedig pan nad yw’r awdurdodau hynny o dan yr un rheolaeth wleidyddol, ac yn gweithredu dulliau gwahanol. Os ydych eisiau i brif weithredwr reoli dau awdurdod lleol, yna unwch yr awdurdodau lleol.Dywedwch hynny os mae dyna rydych am ei weld. Fedrwch chi ddim gwneud hyn ar lefel arwynebol. Os ydych eisiau cydweithio, beth am i ni gael cydweithio go iawn—yn debyg, er enghraifft, i broject llesgedd Gwent, a gaiff ei ariannu’n rhannol gan Lywodraeth Cymru, gyda £9 miliwn yn cael ei wario y llynedd er mwyn gwneud iddo weithio. Mae hynny nid yn unig yn golygu cydweithio rhwng cynghorau lleol, ond hefyd gyda’r gwasanaeth iechyd, a dyna sydd fel pe bai ar goll pan rydych yn sôn am hyn. Rydych yn sôn am gydweithio rhwng cynghorau lleol, ond nid ydych byth yn dweud y dylem ni fod yn cydweithio gyda’r gwasanaeth iechyd, nag adrannau eraill o Lywodraeth Cymru—nid ydych byth yn sôn am benodiadau ar y cyd nag uno yn y meysydd hynny, a sicrhau gwerth priodol am yr arian cyhoeddus sy’n cael ei wario.

I support the collaboration agenda. It is a way forward, and it is something that we can do, but everyone is confused by the Government’s intention. Conflicting sets of boundaries are coming forward, and different commands and directions are being issued to local government about how it should work in future. Everyone is concerned that you are dabbling and interfering in the way that local councils work without wanting to have that debate, it seems. Let us have that debate; let us stop shilly-shallying around, get on with it, and talk about the real issues.

Rwy’n cefnogi’r agenda cydweithio. Mae’n ffordd ymlaen, ac yn rhywbeth y gallwn ei wneud, ond mae pawb mewn dryswch am fwriad y Llywodraeth. Mae ffiniau sy’n gwrthdaro yn cael eu cyflwyno, ac mae gorchmynion a chyfarwyddiadau gwahanol yn cael eu rhoi i lywodraeth leol am sut y dylai weithio yn y dyfodol. Mae pawb yn bryderus eich bod yn ymhél ac yn ymyrryd â’r ffordd mae cynghorau lleol yn gweithio heb fod eisiau cael y ddadl honno, fe ymddengys. Gadewch i ni gael y ddadl honno; gadewch i ni roi’r gorau i oedi, bwrw iddi a siarad am y materion go iawn.

Angela Burns: We are talking here about our concerns regarding the lack of transparency from the Welsh Government on the future of local government. It is worth repeating that, because a great many of us are still bearing the wounds from the mismanagement and poor handling of the ‘Designed to Deliver’ reorganisation of the health service that was attempted by Brian Gibbons when he was Minister. That was a heavy-handed and bullying attempt to go through Wales to implement a brand-new system of consolidating, collaborating and establishing health boards.

Angela Burns: Rydym yn sôn yn y fan hyn am bryderon ynglŷn â diffyg tryloywder gan Lywodraeth Cymru am ddyfodol llywodraeth leol. Mae’n werth dweud hynny eto, gan fod sawl un ohonom yn dal i fod â chreithiau yn dilyn camreoli a chamdrafod y broses o ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd, ‘Cynllun Cyflenwi’, a gafodd ei hymgeisio gan Brian Gibbons pan roedd yn Weinidog. Roedd honno’n ymgais lawdrwm a gormesol i fynd drwy Gymru i weithredu system newydd sbon o grynhoi, cydweithio a sefydlu byrddau iechyd.  

Local government is a relationship between the governing and the governed, and if you want to change it, there are two prerequisites: trust and honesty. Trust is necessary so that the public can believe that it has been part of the process, that its voice has been heard, and that localism is paid more than just lip service. Honesty is necessary in that you must say what your plans are. I therefore have a simple question: do you intend, over the five years of this Assembly, to reorganise in a statutory way, with mergers and amalgamations, the local authorities? As I see it, you have three possible answers: ‘yes’, ‘no’ or ‘I would like to talk about it’. If you want to talk about it, great; that is what we are all here for. The concern that we have, and that local authorities and the public have, is that they will not get the chance to talk about this, and that it will be imposed upon them by the back door. I say that because of the proposed new law—the Local Government (Wales) Collaborative Measures Bill, which is aimed at forcing reluctant councils to share services.

Perthynas yw llywodraeth leol rhwng y rhai sy’n llywodraethu a’r rhai sy’n cael eu llywodraethu, ac os ydych am ei newid, mae angen cael dau beth: ymddiriedaeth ac onestrwydd. Mae angen ymddiriedaeth fel bod y cyhoedd yn gallu credu ei fod wedi bod yn rhan o’r broses, bod ei lais wedi cael ei glywed a bod lleoliaeth yn fwy na dim ond gair ar bapur. Mae angen gonestrwydd yn yr ystyr bod angen i chi ddweud beth yw eich cynlluniau. Felly, mae gen i gwestiwn syml: a ydych chi’n bwriadu, dros bum mlynedd y Cynulliad hwn, ad-drefnu awdurdodau lleol mewn ffordd statudol, gydag uniadau a chyfuniadau? Hyd y gwelaf i, gallwch ateb mewn tair ffordd: ‘ydw’, ‘nac ydw’ neu ‘Hoffwn drafod y peth’. Os ydych am drafod y peth, ardderchog, dyna pam rydym i gyd yma. Y pryder sydd gennym, a’r pryder sydd gan awdurdodau lleol a’r cyhoedd, yw na chânt y cyfle i siarad am hyn, ac y caiff ei osod arnynt drwy’r drws cefn. Dywedaf hynny achos bod y gyfraith arfaethedig newydd—y Bil Mesurau Cydweithio Rhwng Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru), wedi ei fwriadu i orfodi cynghorau anfoddog i rannu gwasanaethau.

I have mentioned two important words: ‘trust’ and ‘honesty’. Here is a third: ‘synergy’. You cannot force synergy between organisations. You cannot make one department work well with another department in a neighbouring council. Councils and organisations of all sorts will find their own synergies. Surely, Minister, you should be enabling those synergies to happen.

Rwyf wedi crybwyll dau air pwysig; ‘ymddiriedaeth’ ac ‘onestrwydd’. Dyma drydydd: ‘synergedd’. Fedrwch chi ddim gorfodi synergedd rhwng sefydliadau. Fedrwch chi ddim gwneud i un adran weithio’n dda gydag adran arall mewn cyngor cyfagos. Bydd cynghorau a sefydliadau o bob math yn canfod eu synergedd eu hunain. Weinidog, dylech fod yn galluogi’r synergeddau hynny i ddigwydd.

5.30 p.m.

Ann Jones: It is interesting that you say that, because the leader of your local authority, John Davies, has said that he recognises the logic of regional mapping. Who is right, the leader of the council or you, in saying that he should not say that?

Ann Jones: Mae’n ddiddorol eich bod yn dweud hynny, achos mae arweinydd eich awdurdod lleol chi, John Davies, wedi dweud ei fod yn cydnabod rhesymeg mapio rhanbarthol. Pwy sy’n iawn, arweinydd y cyngor ynteu chi, yn dweud na ddylai ddweud hynny?

Angela Burns: I am not responsible for the independent leader of Pembrokeshire County Council; I am speaking on behalf of my constituents in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. I am talking about the people who already have 22 local authorities, four education areas, six proposed government areas, four police forces, three national parks and an Assembly. How many layers of bureaucracy does Joe public have to go through in order to be heard? The paper that you brought to Cabinet, Minister, says that there will be six new regional groups to run such services as education and social care. What does that leave for your localism agenda? What will you do on the ground? What will I, as someone who lives in Pembrokeshire, putting a tick in the box, be able to say to my guy or woman who is representing me at the county hall—‘You are in charge of bins’? I want them to be in charge of helping my life get better in my area. I think that I speak for an awful lot of people throughout Wales in saying that. All I am asking you to do, Minister, is to open up the debate so that people can talk about this. I have been watching closely the consultation process of the Hywel Dda Local Health Board in my area, and I have not been impressed. I can say that here because I have told it that I have not been impressed. It has consulted everyone except for Mr and Mrs Average on the street. If you want to do this, Minister, talk about it and bring it to people’s attention, so that the people of Wales, whose main access to workable local democracy is through the person that they vote in—not me or you, but their councillor—have the chance to talk about what they want in their area. Please, Minister, do not deny them that opportunity.

Angela Burns: Nid wyf yn gyfrifol am arweinydd annibynnol Cyngor Sir Penfro; rwy’n siarad ar ran fy etholwyr yn Nwyrain Caerfyrddin a De Penfro. Rwy’n siarad am bobl sydd eisoes â 22 o awdurdodau lleol, pedair ardal addysg, chwech ardal llywodraeth arfaethedig, pedwar heddlu, tri pharc cenedlaethol a Chynulliad. Faint o haenau o fiwrocratiaeth y mae’n rhaid i’r cyhoedd fynd drwyddynt er mwyn i’w llais gael ei glywed? Dywed y papur a gyflwynasoch i’r Cabinet, Weinidog, y bydd chwe grŵp rhanbarthol newydd i redeg gwasanaethau fel addysg a gofal cymdeithasol. Beth y mae hynny yn ei adael ar gyfer eich agenda lleoliaeth? Beth a wnewch chi ar lawr gwlad? Beth a fyddaf i, fel rhywun sy’n byw yn Sir Benfro, wrth roi tic yn y blwch, yn gallu ei ddweud wrth y dyn neu’r ddynes sy’n fy nghynrychioli yn neuadd y ddinas—‘Chi sy’n gyfrifol am finiau’? Yr wyf i eisiau iddynt fod yn gyfrifol am helpu i wella’m bywyd yn fy ardal. Credaf fy mod yn siarad ar ran nifer fawr o bobl ledled Cymru wrth ddweud hynny. Y cyfan rwy’n ei ofyn i chi ei wneud, Weinidog, yw agor y ddadl fel bod pobl yn gallu siarad am hyn. Rwyf wedi bod yn gwylio proses ymgynghori Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda yn agos yn fy ardal, ac nid yw wedi fy mhlesio. Gallaf ddweud hynny yma oherwydd yr wyf wedi dweud wrtho nad wyf wedi fy mhlesio. Y mae wedi ymgynghori â phawb heblaw am y gŵr a gwraig ar y stryd. Os ydych chi eisiau gwneud hyn, siaradwch amdano a dewch ag ef i sylw pobl, fel bod pobl Cymru, sydd yn cael eu prif fynediad i ddemocratiaeth lleol gweithiadwy drwy’r sawl y maent yn pleidleisio iddynt—nid chi neu fi, ond eu cynghorydd—yn cael y cyfle i siarad am beth y maent ei eisiau yn eu hardal. Plîs, Weinidog, peidiwch a gwadu’r cyfle hwnnw iddynt.

Julie James: I have listened with great interest to the debate so far, as someone who worked in local government for over 20 years—more years than I care to remember—and for most of those years in a Welsh authority. I have to wear glasses now as a result of my extreme age and my long years in local government service. I also bear the scars of the last reorganisation process, during which most of my council colleagues looked inwards as we worried about whether we would have jobs at all in the new structure. We looked for our jobs in the new structure and then for those of our colleagues. Councillors did exactly the same thing, and we had two, three, four, or possibly five years during which most councils looked inwards and the economy suffered from the lack of economic activity of all the people who were wrapped up in that reorganisation. It was an utter disaster. We then had the ridiculous situation of having 22 local authorities, which no-one wanted. The idea of starting a comprehensive restructuring of that again in these depressed economic times is, frankly, ludicrous. What matters is what works.

Julie James: Yr wyf wedi gwrando â chryn ddiddordeb i’r ddadl hyd yma, fel rhywun a fu’n gweithio mewn llywodraeth leol ers 20 mlynedd—mwy o flynyddoedd nag yr hoffwn ei gyfaddef—a’r rhan fwyaf o’r blynyddoedd hynny mewn awdurdod yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid i mi wisgo sbectolau bellach oherwydd fy oed mawr a’m blynyddoedd maith mewn gwasanaeth llywodraeth leol. Mae gennyf hefyd greithiau o’r broses ad-drefnu ddiwethaf, pan wnaeth y rhan fwyaf o’m cydweithwyr ar y cyngor syllu ar eu bogel wrth inni bryderu a fyddai gennym swyddi o gwbl yn y strwythur newydd. Gwnaethom chwilio am ein swyddi ni yn y strwythur newydd ac wedyn rhai ein cydweithwyr. Gwnaeth cynghorwyr yn union yr un peth, a chawsom ddwy, tair, pedair, o bosibl pum mlynedd pryd y gwnaeth y rhan fwyaf o gynghorau syllu ar eu bogel a dioddefodd yr economi oherwydd diffyg gweithgarwch economaidd yr holl bobl a oedd yn rhan o’r ad-drefnu hwnnw. Cawsom wedyn sefyllfa chwerthinllyd o gael 22 o awdurdodau lleol, nad oedd unrhyw un mo’u heisiau. Mae’r syniad o ailstrwythuro hynny eto yn gynhwysfawr yn ystod y cyfnod economaidd dirwasgedig hwn yn hurt, a bod yn blaen. Beth sy’n bwysig yw’r hyn sy’n gweithio.

Local government is very good at making things work, and always has been in my experience. We have here suggestions from the Welsh Government, which, from my experience of talking to stakeholders, are widely welcomed. The Government is also saying that it will not interfere with other arrangements that do in fact work. Therefore, there are other regional arrangements. For example, I was the officer who set up the only shared services arrangement in Wales for years, which was the shared legal services project, involving Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend councils. Those councils were not of the same political persuasion, and that project has now been extended to other councils that are not of the same political persuasion. Therefore, that argument does not hold. As an officer, I have frequently served people who have different agendas quite happily. That can, of course, be done. All members have jobs at different levels of organisations and so on, and happily move between those agendas. Therefore, the idea that someone, in delivering the same services, cannot serve two organisations at the same time is nonsense.

Mae llywodraeth leol yn dda iawn am wneud i bethau weithio, ac y mae wastad wedi bod o’m profiad i. Mae gennym awgrymiadau yn y fan hon gan Lywodraeth Cymru sydd, o’m profiad i o siarad â rhanddeiliaid, wedi cael croeso helaeth. Dywed y Llywodraeth hefyd na fydd yn ymyrryd â threfniadau eraill sydd, fel mae’n digwydd bod, yn gweithio. Felly, mae trefniadau rhanbarthol eraill. Er enghraifft, fi oedd y swyddog a sefydlodd yr unig drefniant rhannu gwasanaethau yng Nghymru am flynyddoedd, sef y project rhannu gwasanaethau cyfreithiol a oedd yn cynnwys cynghorau Abertawe, Castell-nedd Port Talbot a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Nid oedd y cynghorau hynny o’r un lliw gwleidyddol, ac y mae’r project bellach wedi ei ehangu i gynghorau eraill nad ydynt o’r un lliw gwleidyddol. Felly, nid yw’r ddadl honno yn dal dŵr. Fel swyddog, rwyf yn aml wedi gwasanaethu pobl sydd ag agendâu gwahanol yn ddigon hapus. Mae modd gwneud hynny, wrth gwrs. Mae gan bob aelod swyddi ar lefel wahanol mewn sefydliadau, ac yn y blaen, ac yn hapus yn symud rhwng yr agendâu hynny. Felly, mae’r syniad bod rhywun, wrth gyflwyno’r un gwasanaethau, ddim yn gallu gwasanaethau dau sefydliad ar yr un pryd yn nonsens.

I wrote several reports when I was in private practice, after leaving local government, about the necessary implementation of various schemes and plans. Therefore, I would say that local government in Wales needs to look beyond its boundaries, which is why I welcome the arrangements in relation to the Simpson Compact and so on. I disagree with my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders when she says that the boundaries are natural ones, because they are nothing of the sort. In fact, they are very unnatural in some cases. As Angela Burns said, local authorities find their own synergies. There are many such arrangements in place and they work. However, many do not find their own synergies for small, parochial reasons. I will not mention the authorities in question, but I did a number of reports into various authorities and the parochialism of many of the councillors, as well as the officers, was horrendous. That was true across all political persuasions; I am not singling out any party. Therefore, what I would look for, and the Cabinet papers that we have seen and the moves in the compact arrangements and the partnership council are heading towards it, is encouragement for authorities to come out of those parochial boundaries with both carrots and sticks—sticks are necessary, frankly—to get shared service arrangements working.

Ysgrifennais nifer o adroddiadau pan oeddwn mewn practis preifat, ar ôl gadael llywodraeth leol, am weithredu angenrheidiol amryw o raglenni a chynlluniau. Felly, byddwn yn dweud bod angen i lywodraeth leol edrych y tu hwnt i’w ffiniau, a dyna paham fy mod yn croesawu’r trefniadau o ran Compact Simpson ac ati. Rwy’n anghytuno â’m cydweithwraig Janet Finch-Saunders pan ddywed fod y ffiniau yn rhai naturiol, gan nad ydynt yn ddim o’r fath. Mewn gwirionedd, maent yn annaturiol iawn mewn ambell achos. Fel y dywedodd Angela Burns, mae awdurdodau lleol yn canfod eu synergeddau eu hunain. Mae nifer o drefniadau o’r fath yn eu lle ac y maent yn gweithio. Fodd bynnag, nid yw sawl un yn canfod eu synergeddau eu hun am resymau pitw a phlwyfol. Ni wnaf sôn am yr awdurdodau dan sylw, ond ysgrifennais sawl adroddiad ar amryw o awdurdodau ac yr oedd plwyfoldeb llawer o’r cynghorwyr, yn ogystal â’r swyddogion, yn arswydus. Roedd hynny’n wir ar draws y lliwiau gwleidyddol; nid wyf yn sôn am un blaid yn benodol. Felly, yr hyn y byddwn yn chwilio amdano, ac y mae’r papurau Cabinet a welsom a’r cyngor partneriaeth yn symud i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw, yw anogaeth i awdurdodau ddod o’r ffiniau plwyfol hynny gyda chymelliadau a chosbau—mae angen cosbau, a dweud y gwir—er mwyn cael trefniadau rhannu gwasanaethau i weithio.

I disagree with the ridiculous adage that it is cheaper and better in the private sector. In Wales, we have a reliance on consultancy services in local government that we really must break. One way of breaking that is to make local authorities think deeper and harder, both at councillor and officer level, about the expertise that they already have in-house and about making that expertise available across boundaries. In that way, it is possible to save a phenomenal amount of money and, more importantly, keep expertise and high-calibre people within Wales. The expertise curve cannot be sustained by a single local authority.

Rwy’n anghytuno gyda’r wireb chwerthinllyd ei bod yn rhatach ac yn well yn y sector preifat. Mae gennym ddibyniaeth yng Nghymru ar wasanaethau ymgynghori y mae’n rhaid i ni wir gael gwared arno. Un ffordd o gael gwared arno yw gwneud i awdurdodau lleol feddwl yn ddyfnach a chaletach, ar lefel cynghorwyr a swyddogion, am yr arbenigedd sydd ganddynt yn fewnol eisoes a sicrhau bod yr arbenigedd hwnnw ar gael ar draws ffiniau. Fel hynny, mae modd arbed swm anferth o arian, ac, yn bwysicach, cadw arbenigedd a phobl o safon uchel yng Nghymru. Ni ellir cynnal yr arbenigedd o fewn un awdurdod lleol yn unig.

I will end by expanding on that point. Say, as an officer, I gain a lot of experience because I regenerate an area of Swansea—the stadium, for example, which I personally worked on. I gain a huge amount of experience and expertise, but my council builds just one stadium, so then I lose that expertise. Instead of that in-house expertise being shared with other local authorities and used, the neighbouring local authorities employ expensive England-based solicitors to do the same piece of work. Therefore, I urge that we go with these plans, allow what works to work and what does not work to be criticised so that we can learn from those mistakes, and share in-house expertise.

Dof i ben drwy ymhelaethu ar y pwynt hwnnw. Dyweder, fel swyddog, fy mod i’n ennill cryn dipyn o brofiad oherwydd fy mod i’n adfywio ardal o Abertawe—y stadiwm, er enghraifft, y bûm yn gweithio arno yn bersonol. Rwy’n ennill profiad ac arbenigedd sylweddol iawn, ond dim ond un stadiwm y mae fy nghyngor yn ei adeiladu, felly rwy’n colli’r arbenigedd hwnnw. Yn hytrach na bod yr arbenigedd mewnol hwnnw yn cael ei rannu gydag awdurdodau lleol eraill a’i ddefnyddio, mae’r awdurdodau lleol cyfagos yn cyflogi cyfreithwyr drud o Loegr i wneud yr un gwaith. Felly, rwy’n annog i ni fynd gyda’r cynlluniau hyn, caniatáu i beth sy’n gweithio i weithio ac i’r hyn sydd ddim yn gweithio gael ei feirniadu fel y gallwn ddysgu o’r camgymeriadau hynny, a rhannu arbenigedd mewnol.

Mark Isherwood: After the general principles of the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011 had been agreed and it had been debated in draft form, Carl Sargeant, the Minister, introduced eleventh-hour amendments to the proposed Measure that had not been consulted upon and which gave Welsh Ministers the powers to make an amalgamation Order to merge local government areas. The Minister stated that he introduced this provision because it was clear that, in the current financial climate, local authorities need to work together and collaborate much more closely with their neighbours. However, collaboration and amalgamation are two entirely different things. As the leader of Gwynedd Council, Dyfed Edwards, said, if the Government believes that the best way to deliver public services is to create six regional groups, or one for north Wales, then let us get that out on the table and have a debate about it.

Mark Isherwood: Ar ôl cytuno ar egwyddorion Mesur Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2011 a’i drafod ar ffurf drafft, cyflwynodd Carl Sargeant, y Gweinidog, welliannau munud olaf i’r Mesur arfaethedig nad oedd ymgynghori wedi bod arnynt ac a oedd yn rhoi pwerau i Weinidogion Cymru i wneud Gorchymyn uno er mwyn uno ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol. Dywedodd y Gweinidog ei fod yn cyflwyno’r ddarpariaeth hon gan ei bod yn glir, yn yr hinsawdd ariannol sydd ohoni, bod angen i awdurdodau lleol weithio gyda’i gilydd a chydweithio yn llawer agosach gyda’u cymdogion. Fodd bynnag, mae cydweithio ac uno yn ddau beth gwahanol iawn. Fel y dywedodd arweinydd Cyngor Gwynedd, Dyfed Edwards, os yw’r Llywodraeth yn credu mai’r ffordd orau i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw creu chwe grŵp rhanbarthol, neu un i’r gogledd, yna gadewch inni roi hynny ar y bwrdd a’i drafod.

There are serious and deep-rooted problems in parts of local government, as I know only too well from my own north Wales casework. In my experience, however, the overwhelming majority of local authority staff are good, decent, dedicated people and not all authorities are serial offenders. However, an officer-led culture predominates in certain hotspots whereby senior officers treat someone reporting a problem as the problem, shooting the messenger and thereby creating a culture of inefficiency and a waste of public resource. Labour-led Governments since devolution have dealt with this problem in different parts of Wales by putting a lid on it and allowing pressure to continue to build. The Minister fails to recognise that big is not always beautiful—although, of course, the Minister himself is—or more efficient or cost effective, and that amalgamation that does not deal with core problems in local authorities will simply transfer the infection to others.

Mae problemau difrifol a hirsefydlog mewn rhannau o lywodraeth leol, fel y gwn yn dda o’m gwaith achos fy hun yn y gogledd. Yn fy mhrofiad i, fodd bynnag, mae’r mwyafrif llethol o staff awdurdodau lleol yn bobl dda, weddus, ymrwymedig ac nid yw pob awdurdod yn droseddwr cyson. Fodd bynnag, mae diwylliant sy’n cael ei arwain gan swyddogion mewn rhai ardaloedd sydd â phroblem lle mae uwch swyddogion yn trin rhywun sy’n adrodd problem fel y broblem, gan feio’r negesydd ac felly creu diwylliant o aneffeithlonrwydd a gwastraff o adnoddau cyhoeddus. Mae Llywodraethau dan arweiniad Llafur ers datganoli wedi ymdrin â’r broblem hon mewn rhannau gwahanol o Gymru drwy ei bwrw i’r neilltu a gadael i’r pwysau barhau i dyfu. Mae’r Gweinidog yn methu â gweld nad yw mawr wastad yn brydferth—er bod y Gweinidog ei hun, wrth gwrs—nac yn fwy effeithiol neu’n gost-effeithiol, ac nad yw uno yn ymdrin â phroblemau craidd mewn awdurdodau lleol a fydd, yn syml, yn trosglwyddo’r haint i eraill.

I will provide a sample of a much larger incidence of this from my own casework. I refer to allegations that a council’s head of regeneration made false allegations against a Communities First employee who had questioned his use of Communities First resources and failure to consult a partnership board. I refer to the independent investigation by another council after false allegations were made against a whistleblower in another Communities First area. I refer to a housing grants manager commissioning reports at public expense and setting the terms of reference, thereby enabling several complementary reports from independent surveyors and construction engineers in relation to damage caused to the homes of vulnerable people to be sidelined. I refer to the head of planning policy who told me in front of the council’s head of planning and a constituent that if I thought that he had time to read Welsh Government planning guidance and ministerial interim planning policy statements I had another thing coming. I refer to members of the same council’s planning committee, who recently told me that they voted in favour of planning officers’ recommendations even when they disagreed with them because, they said, ‘We may need a favour from them in the future’.

Rhoddaf sampl o lawer mwy o enghreifftiau o hyn o’m gwaith achos. Cyfeiriaf at yr honiadau bod pennaeth adfywio cyngor wedi gwneud honiadau ffug yn erbyn rhywun a weithiai i Cymunedau yn Gyntaf a oedd wedi cwestiynu ei ddefnydd o adnoddau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf ac am beidio ag ymgynghori â bwrdd partneriaeth. Cyfeiriaf at yr ymchwiliad annibynnol gan gyngor arall ar ôl i honiadau ffug gael eu gwneud yn erbyn chwythwr chwiban mewn ardal Cymunedau yn Gyntaf arall. Cyfeiriaf at reolwr grantiau tai a gomisiynodd adroddiadau ar draul y pwrs cyhoeddus a gosod y cylch gorchwyl, a thrwy hynny sicrhau bod sawl adroddiad cyflenwol gan syrfewyr a pheirianwyr adeiladu am y difrod a achoswyd i gartrefi pobl agored i niwed i gael eu bwrw o’r neilltu. Cyfeiriaf at bennaeth polisi cynllunio a ddywedodd wrthyf o flaen pennaeth cynllunio cyngor ac etholwr os oeddwn yn tybio bod ganddo amser i ddarllen canllawiau cynllunio Llywodraeth Cymru a datganiadau polisi cynllunio dros dro gan Weinidogion, yna roeddwn yn camgymryd. Cyfeiriaf at aelodau pwyllgor cynllunio yr un cyngor, a ddywedodd wrthyf yn ddiweddar eu bod wedi pleidleisio o blaid argymhellion gan swyddogion cynllunio hyd yn oed pan oeddent yn anghytuno gyda hwy, gan ddweud, ‘Efallai byddwn angen ffafr ganddynt yn y dyfodol’.

I refer to the letter from a university professor to a local education authority, which stated that their reason for writing was the misrepresentation of points in the authority’s publicly available paper to the council executive. I refer to the small business that told me last week that local authorities in its area are not interested in commissioning from it and do not even want to talk to it. It said that councils will not look at doing things differently, adding that you would think that, in this day and age, they would want to save money.

Cyfeiriaf at lythyr gan athro prifysgol at awdurdod addysg lleol, a ddywedodd mai eu rheswm dros ysgrifennu oedd bod pwyntiau ym mhapur yr awdurdod a oedd ar gael i’r cyhoedd at fwrdd gweithredol y cyngor wedi eu camgynrychioli. Cyfeiriaf at y busnes bach a ddywedodd wrthyf yr wythnos diwethaf nad oedd gan awdurdodau lleol yn ei ardal ddiddordeb comisiynu ganddynt a ddim hyd yn oed eisiau trafod y peth. Dywedodd na wnaiff cynghorau edrych ar ffyrdd o wneud pethau’n wahanol, gan ychwanegu y byddech yn tybio, yn yr oes sydd ohoni, y byddent am arbed arian.

I refer to allegations made by a number of constituents of fraud in respect of housing renovation grants in a particular council, where my constituents advise that their allegations are supported by their own documentary evidence. I refer to the appointment to a failing local authority of a commissioner who was the leader of another local authority in the past during a period when it had been the subject of a number of inquiries and where a legally binding employment tribunal judgment included the finding that there had been positive falsification of documentation and auditors PricewaterhouseCoopers reported that so many failings in the council’s maintenance department were unearthed that both managers and workers could be guilty of misconduct.

Cyfeiriaf at honiadau o dwyll a wnaed gan nifer o etholwyr mewn perthynas â grantiau adnewyddu tai mewn cyngor penodol, lle dywedodd etholwyr bod eu honiadau yn cael eu cefnogi gan dystiolaeth ddogfennol eu hunain. Cyfeiriaf at benodi comisiynydd i awdurdod lleol a oedd yn methu a oedd yn arweinydd awdurdod lleol yn y gorffennol mewn cyfnod lle bu’n destun nifer o ymchwiliadau a lle’r oedd dyfarniad tribiwnlys cyflogaeth a rwymwyd mewn cyfraith yn cynnwys y canfyddiad bod dogfennau wedi cael eu ffugio a dywedodd yr archwilwyr, PricewaterhouseCoopers, fod cymaint o fethiannau wedi eu darganfod yn adran cynnal a chadw y cyngor fel y gallai rheolwyr a gweithwyr fel ei gilydd fod yn euog o gamymddwyn.

I refer to the local authority that dismissed years of warnings from the father and grandparents that a little girl was being abused by her stepfather until the little girl, then six, turned up at school with visible injuries. The stepfather was imprisoned and, thankfully, the little girl is now with her father and grandparents.

Cyfeiriaf at yr awdurdod lleol a anwybyddodd flynyddoedd o rybuddion gan dad a nain a thaid fod merch fach yn cael ei cham-drin gan ei llys-dad hyd nes i’r ferch fach, a oedd yn chwech yr adeg honno, droi i fyny yn yr ysgol ag anafiadau gweladwy. Cafodd y llys-dad ei garcharu, a diolch i’r drefn, mae’r merch fach bellach gyda’i thad a’i nain a’i thaid.

I refer to the trade union officer who told me earlier this month, with detailed evidence, that many organisations in Wales have very good employment practices but that far too many in receipt of public money treat their staff appallingly. I conclude by quoting Leighton Andrews in his recent letter to a council leader in which he rightly states:

Cyfeiriaf at y swyddog undeb llafur a ddywedodd wrthyf yn gynharach y mis hwn, gyda thystiolaeth fanwl, bod gan nifer o sefydliadau yng Nghymru arferion cyflogaeth da iawn ond bod llawer gormod ohonynt sy’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus yn trin eu staff yn ddifrifol. Dof i ben drwy ddyfynnu Leighton Andrews yn ei lythyr diweddar at arweinydd cyngor lle mae’n dweud yn gywir:

‘It is insufficient to state that the constitution delegates operational matters to officers’—

Nid yw’n ddigon dweud bod y cyfansoddiad yn dirprwyo materion gweithredol i swyddogion—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Wind up now please, Mark.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Dewch i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda, Mark.

Mark Isherwood: He went on to say that

Mark Isherwood: Aeth yn ei flaen i ddweud

‘Councils should have a strategic overview and must provide direction and challenge to its officers, and you must accept that your role as Leader is to ensure this happens.’

Dylai cynghorau fod â throsolwg strategol ac y mae’n rhaid iddynt roi cyfarwyddyd a her i’w swyddogion, a rhaid i chi dderbyn mai eich rôl chi fel Arweinydd yw sicrhau bod hyn yn digwydd.

Well done, Minister.

Da iawn, Weinidog.

Aled Roberts: Croesawaf y cyfle i drafod y pwnc hwn heddiw, gan fod dyfodol llywodraeth leol yn hollbwysig. Felly, diolchaf i’r Ceidwadwyr am y cyfle i drafod hyn. Cefais y fraint o gadeirio pwyllgor rhanbarth y gogledd am ryw bum mlynedd tan fis Mai eleni, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cydnabod llwyddiant llawer o’r prosiectau cydweithio ar draws Cymru. Mae’n rhaid dweud bod gan arweinwyr cynghorau lleol Cymru berthynas bositif iawn â’r Gweinidog ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod penodiad comisiynwyr ym Mlaenau Gwent ac yn sir Fôn yn dangos bod problem gyda llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, ac mae hynny’n achosi pryder i ni i gyd yma yn y Senedd a hefyd i deulu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

Aled Roberts: I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue today, because the future of local government is crucial. Therefore, I thank the Conservatives for the opportunity to discuss this. I had the privilege of chairing the north Wales regional committee for some five years until May of this year, and I am sure that the Minister will recognise the success of many of the collaborative projects across Wales. I have to say that leaders of local authorities in Wales have a very positive relationship with the current Minister. However, I think that the appointment of commissioners in Blaenau Gwent and Anglesey demonstrates that there are problems with local government in Wales, and that is a cause of concern for everyone here in the Senedd and also for the local government family in Wales.

Felly, mae’n bwysig i ni gefnogi’r cynnig, ond nid wyf yn barod i gefnogi gwelliant 1, gan nad wyf yn siŵr, er bod gennym ddealltwriaeth o’r problemau y mae llywodraeth leol yn eu hwynebu, a oes gennym syniad ynghylch gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth o ran lle yr ydym yn troi os nad yw’r prosiectau cydweithio yn gweithio.

Therefore, it is important that we support the motion, but I am not willing to support amendment 1 because, although we have an understanding of the problems that local government is facing, I am not sure whether we have any idea about the Government’s vision with regard to where we turn if these collaborative projects do not work.

I have to say that I agreed with Julie James’s comments entirely. Those of us with experience of being in local government will accept that there is reluctance at times, on the part of councillors and officers, to accept that collaborative working is for the benefit of the residents we serve. At times, there is too much reliance on the status quo and comfort zones. My experiences on the north Wales regional partnership board lead me to share the frustrations that I am sure the Minister must feel with regard to the pace of development. I think that there is a danger, given the amount of money that has been spent on consultants’ fees with regard to various shared services opportunities and other projects, that a lot of that money is spent to convince people of the reason things cannot change rather than on changing them.

Rhaid i mi ddweud fy mod i’n cytuno’n llwyr â sylwadau Julie James. Bydd y rhai ohonom ni sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn llywodraeth leol yn derbyn bod amharodrwydd weithiau, ar ran cynghorwyr a swyddogion, i dderbyn bod gweithio ar y cyd er budd y preswylwyr yr ydym yn eu gwasanaethu. Weithiau, mae gormod o ddibyniaeth ar gadw’r sefyllfa fel ag y mae ac ar fywyd cysurus. Mae fy mhrofiadau ar fwrdd partneriaeth rhanbarthol y gogledd yn peri i mi rannu fy rhwystredigaeth yr wyf yn siŵr y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei deimlo am ba mor gyflym y mae datblygu yn digwydd. Credaf fod perygl, o gofio faint o arian a wariwyd ar ffioedd ymgynghorwyr o ran y cyfleoedd amrywiol i rannu gwasanaethau a phrojectau eraill, bod llawer o’r arian hwnnw yn cael ei wario ar argyhoeddi pobl pam na all bethau newid yn hytrach nag ar eu newid nhw.

Aled Roberts: Croesawaf y cyfle i drafod y pwnc hwn heddiw, gan fod dyfodol llywodraeth leol yn hollbwysig. Felly, diolchaf i’r Ceidwadwyr am y cyfle i drafod hyn. Cefais y fraint o gadeirio pwyllgor rhanbarth y gogledd am ryw bum mlynedd tan fis Mai eleni, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cydnabod llwyddiant llawer o’r prosiectau cydweithio ar draws Cymru. Mae’n rhaid dweud bod gan arweinwyr cynghorau lleol Cymru berthynas bositif iawn â’r Gweinidog ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod penodiad comisiynwyr ym Mlaenau Gwent ac yn sir Fôn yn dangos bod problem gyda llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, ac mae hynny’n achosi pryder i ni i gyd yma yn y Senedd a hefyd i deulu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru.

Aled Roberts: I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue today, because the future of local government is crucial. Therefore, I thank the Conservatives for the opportunity to discuss this. I had the privilege of chairing the north Wales regional committee for some five years until May of this year, and I am sure that the Minister will recognise the success of many of the collaborative projects across Wales. I have to say that leaders of local authorities in Wales have a very positive relationship with the current Minister. However, I think that the appointment of commissioners in Blaenau Gwent and Anglesey demonstrates that there are problems with local government in Wales, and that is a cause of concern for everyone here in the Senedd and also for the local government family in Wales.

Felly, mae’n bwysig i ni gefnogi’r cynnig, ond nid wyf yn barod i gefnogi gwelliant 1, gan nad wyf yn siŵr, er bod gennym ddealltwriaeth o’r problemau y mae llywodraeth leol yn eu hwynebu, a oes gennym syniad ynghylch gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth o ran lle yr ydym yn troi os nad yw’r prosiectau cydweithio yn gweithio.

Therefore, it is important that we support the motion, but I am not willing to support amendment 1 because, although we have an understanding of the problems that local government is facing, I am not sure whether we have any idea about the Government’s vision with regard to where we turn if these collaborative projects do not work.

I have to say that I agreed with Julie James’s comments entirely. Those of us with experience of being in local government will accept that there is reluctance at times, on the part of councillors and officers, to accept that collaborative working is for the benefit of the residents we serve. At times, there is too much reliance on the status quo and comfort zones. My experiences on the north Wales regional partnership board lead me to share the frustrations that I am sure the Minister must feel with regard to the pace of development. I think that there is a danger, given the amount of money that has been spent on consultants’ fees with regard to various shared services opportunities and other projects, that a lot of that money is spent to convince people of the reason things cannot change rather than on changing them.

Rhaid i mi ddweud mod i’n cytuno’n llwyr â sylwadau Julie James. Bydd y rhai ohonom ni sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn llywodraeth leol yn derbyn bod amharodrwydd weithiau, ar ran cynghorwyr a swyddogion, i dderbyn bod gweithio ar y cyd er budd y preswylwyr rydym yn eu gwasanaethu. Weithiau, mae gormod o ddibyniaeth ar gadw’r sefyllfa fel ag y mae ac ar fywyd cysurus. Mae fy mhrofiadau ar fwrdd partneriaeth rhanbarthol y gogledd yn peri i mi rannu fy rhwystredigaeth rwy’n siŵr mae’r Gweinidog yn deimlo am ba mor gyflym mae datblygu yn digwydd. Credaf fod perygl, o gofio faint o arian a wariwyd ar ffioedd ymgynghorwyr o ran y cyfleoedd amrywiol i rannu gwasanaethau a phrojectau eraill, bod llawer o’r arian hwnnw yn cael ei wario ar argyhoeddi pobl pam na all pethau newid yn hytrach nag ar eu newid nhw.

5.45 p.m.

I do not think that the measure of success will be the number of high-level posts that local authorities share; the measure of success will be real improvement to the delivery of services to ordinary people. There is, however, a need for us to understand the timescales involved and to have regard to the practical implications involved in collaborative projects. We need to know exactly how much time will be given. I became aware of the complexities with regard to the merging of terms of conditions as far as different workers were concerned.

Nid wyf yn credu mai mesur llwyddiant fydd nifer y swyddi lefel uchel y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn eu rhannu; mesur llwyddiant fydd y gwelliant go iawn i ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau i bobl gyffredin. Fodd bynnag, mae angen i ni ddeall y terfynau amser sydd ynghlwm wrth hyn ac i ystyried y goblygiadau ymarferol sydd ynghlwm â phrojectau ar y cyd. Mae angen i ni wybod faint yn union o amser y byddwn yn ei gael. Deuthum i wybod bod cymhlethdodau o ran uno amodau a thelerau cyn belled â bod gweithwyr gwahanol yn y cwestiwn.

There is a need for us to discuss in the Assembly what happens if these collaborative projects do not come to fruition—that is the frustration we feel as ordinary Members. If the Government came out with a clear statement saying that it is not considering local government reorganisation, but that, if the Minister clearly felt that the collaborative projects are frustrated, he would have no difficulty in using the powers under the new legislation, it would give a clear message. What local government needs is an understanding that the Assembly, because of the issues that Julie James referred to, does not see wholesale local government reorganisation as a panacea. If we go down the path of local government reorganisation, there is a real danger that councils will spend two or three years looking inwards, sorting themselves out and having little or no regard to the improvement of services. My own experience is that large authorities are not the cure for all ills. There are well-run small authorities, and there are badly-run large authorities. Given the size of our nation, we also have to recognise recent experience, particularly in north-east Wales, which has meant that people have felt a lot closer to service delivery under the current model than they did under the previous model.

Mae angen i ni hefyd drafod yn y Cynulliad beth sy’n digwydd pan nad yw’r projectau ar y cyd hyn yn dwyn ffrwyth—dyna yw’r rhwystredigaeth a deimlwn fel Aelodau cyffredin. Pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn rhyddhau datganiad clir yn dweud nad yw yn ystyried ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, ond pe bai’r Gweinidog yn teimlo’n glir bod y projectau ar y cyd yn rhwystredig, ni fyddai’n anhawster ganddo i ddefnyddio’r pwerau o dan y ddeddfwriaeth newydd, byddai hynny’n rhoi neges glir. Yr hyn mae ar lywodraeth leol ei angen yw dealltwriaeth nad yw’r Cynulliad, oherwydd y materion y cyfeiriodd Julie James atynt, yn gweld ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol ar raddfa fawr fel ateb i bopeth. Os awn ar drywydd ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, mae perygl go iawn y bydd cynghorau yn treulio dwy neu dair blynedd yn syllu ar eu bogel, yn gofalu am eu hunain a ddim yn talu hid o gwbl neu’n dangos fawr o hid at wella gwasanaethau. Fy mhrofiad i yw nad awdurdodau mawr yw’r ateb i bopeth. Mae yna awdurdodau bach sy’n cael eu rhedeg yn dda, ac mae yna awdurdodau mawr sydd ddim yn cael eu rhedeg yn dda. O ystyried maint ein cenedl, rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod y profiad yn ddiweddar, yn enwedig yn y gogledd-orllewin, sydd wedi golygu bod pobl yn teimlo’n llawer agosach at y ddarpariaeth gwasanaeth o dan y model presennol nag oeddent o dan yr un blaenorol.

I also ask the Minister to provide some clarity with regard to the friction, if you like, between his own announcement following the Cabinet statement in the summer and the arrangements with regard to the educational consortia. Although it creates no problems in my own region, because the two groupings are exactly the same, I am aware that, as other Members have alluded to—

Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog roi rhywfaint o eglurhad am y ffrithiant, os hoffech, rhwng ei gyhoeddiad ef yn dilyn y datganiad Cabinet yn yr haf a’r trefniadau o ran y consortia addysg. Er nad yw’n creu problemau yn fy rhanbarth i, gan fod y ddau grŵp yn union yr un fath, rwy’n gwybod, gan fod Aelodau eraill wedi cyfeirio at—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Conclude, now.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Dewch i ben nawr.

Aled Roberts: In south Wales, there are conflicts, and I think that we need to have a clear understanding as to whether the education consortia will be allowed to come to fruition under the current arrangements. There is a need—

Aled Roberts: Mae gwrthdaro yn y de, ac rwy’n meddwl bod angen i ni ddeall yn glir a fydd y consortia addysg yn cael eu galluogi i ddwyn ffrwyth o dan y trefniadau presennol. Mae angen—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You are out of time now, sorry.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Daeth eich amser i ben erbyn hyn, mae’n ddrwg gennyf.

Suzy Davies: I will try to keep my remarks short, bearing in mind that I would like to avoid repetition. The fact that we are having this debate on transparency in local government suggests that the Welsh Labour Government, and local authorities themselves in some cases, are failing to inspire confidence that their most important decisions are being made in the most open of ways. The disturbing report that we heard yesterday about children’s services in Pembrokeshire, for example, is enough to make us all sit up and take notice. On the back of the troubles in Ynys Môn and Blaenau Gwent that you were just talking about, there is the spectacle of a woman being removed from the chamber in Carmarthen and allegations of intimidation of councillors by officers in certain planning decisions in Bridgend. Perhaps this debate is not just timely, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, but overdue.

Suzy Davies: Ceisiaf gadw fy sylwadau’n fyr, gan fy mod eisiau osgoi ailadrodd. Mae’r ffaith ein bod yn cael y ddadl hon ar dryloywder mewn llywodraeth leol yn awgrymu nad yw Llywodraeth Llafur Cymru, a’r awdurdodau lleol eu hunain mewn rhai achosion, yn methu ag ennyn hyder bod eu penderfyniadau pwysicaf yn cael eu gwneud yn y ffordd fwyaf agored. Mae’r adroddiad poenus a glywsom ddoe am wasanaethau plant yn Sir Benfro, er enghraifft, yn ddigon i ni gyd ddeffro a chymryd sylw. Ar gefn y trafferthion yn Ynys Môn a Blaenau Gwent yr ydych newydd sôn amdanynt, mae’r sioe o ddynes yn cael ei symud o’r siambr yng Nghaerfyrddin a honiadau o ymddygiad bygythiol gan gynghorwyr mewn rhai penderfyniadau cynllunio ym Mhen-y-bont. Efallai nad yw’r ddadl hon ddim jest yn amserol, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, ond yn hwyr.

If my post bag is anything to go by, people are still concerned that cabinet government and a reliance on delegated powers mean that money is spent and decisions are taken while the people that are affected have no stake in those decisions, despite all attempts by them to take part in the process. Members will be aware of the Welsh Conservatives’ desire to give power back to those who feel dissatisfied with decisions by opening up details of public body expenditure to their scrutiny. The Beecham report has recommended it, the UK Government’s Localism Bill has included it and, as Janet Finch-Saunders has said, two Conservative-led Welsh local authorities have voluntarily introduced it, so why is this Welsh Labour Government so fearful of it? Could it be that Ministers are reluctant to ask public bodies to clarify their figures? Perhaps the Minister is struggling to clarify the figures himself. Are we any nearer to knowing the levels of savings local authorities are expected to make as a result of this measure?

Os yw fy sach bost yn dangos unrhyw beth, mae pobl yn dal yn bryderus am lywodraeth gabinet ac mae dibyniaeth ar bwerau wedi eu dirprwyo yn golygu bod arian yn cael ei wario a phenderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud tra bod pobl yr effeithir arnynt ddim yn cael dweud yn y penderfyniadau hynny, er gwaethaf pob ymdrech ganddynt i gymryd rhan yn y broses. Bydd Aelodau yn gwybod am ddyhead y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i roi pŵer yn ôl i’r rhai sy’n anfodlon â phenderfyniadau drwy agor manylion gwariant gan gyrff gyhoeddus er mwyn iddynt graffu arnynt. Mae adroddiad Beecham wedi argymell hynny, mae Bil Lleoliaeth Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi ei gynnwys, ac fel y dywedodd Janet Finch-Saunders, mae dau awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru a arweinir gan Geidwadwyr wedi ei gyflwyno’n wirfoddol, felly pam fod y Llywodraeth Lafur Gymreig hon gymaint o’i ofn? Ai oherwydd bod Gweinidogion yn amharod i ofyn i gyrff gyhoeddus egluro eu ffigurau? Efallai bod y Gweinidog yn cael anhawster i egluro’r ffigurau ei hun. A ydym rywfaint yn agosach at wybod faint o arbedion y mae disgwyl i awdurdodau lleol eu gwneud o ganlyniad i’r mesur hwn?

Perhaps public bodies are getting a subliminal message from the Government that obfuscation and pushing things through without genuine consultation is acceptable, because that is what we are getting. This is the Welsh Labour Government’s major piece of work with local government. We are told that it will make local government more accountable and more connected to local people, yet it seems to show little respect for accountability and it is failing to connect even with local government.

Efallai bod cyrff cyhoeddus yn cael neges dan yr wyneb gan y Llywodraeth fod cymylu’r dyfroedd a gwthio pethau drwodd heb ymgynghori go iawn yn dderbyniol, achos dyna beth yr ydym yn ei gael. Hwn yw darn mawr o waith Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru gyda llywodraeth leol. Dywedir wrthym y bydd yn gwneud llywodraeth leol yn fwy atebol ac yn cyffwrdd mwy â phobl leol, ond eto nid yw’n ymddangos fel pe bai’n dangos fawr o barch at atebolrwydd ac nid yw’n llwyddo i gyffwrdd â llywodraeth leol hyd yn oed.

The last minute introduction of powers to make amalgamation orders was made without consultation, despite the huge changes that it is capable of imposing. Where is the accountability for that decision? It has taken this Welsh Conservatives debate to try to winkle that explanation out of the Minister.

Cyflwynwyd pwerau ar y funud olaf i wneud gorchmynion uno heb ymgynghori, er gwaethaf y newidiadau anferth yr oedd ganddynt y gallu i’w gosod. Ble mae’r atebolrwydd am y penderfyniad hwnnw? Y mae wedi cymryd y ddadl hon gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i geisio cael eglurhad am hynny gan y Gweinidog.

Whether the Minister accepts that his proposals for co-operation amount to reorganisation through the back door or not, the leader of the City and County of Swansea council certainly thinks so. I wonder whether Mr Holley’s observations that this will be reorganisation on the cheap will be borne out, because, as I have already said, the Minister has left councils in the dark as to exactly what they are supposed to be saving.

Pa un ai a ydyw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn bod ei gynigion am gydweithio yn gyfystyr ag ad-drefnu llechwraidd ai peidio, mae arweinydd Cyngor a Sir Abertawe yn sicr o’r farn honno. Tybed a fydd sylwadau Mr Holley mai ad-drefnu rhad fydd hyn yn cael eu gwireddu, oherwydd fel y dywedais yn barod, mae’r Gweinidog wedi gadael cynghorau yn y tywyllwch o ran beth yn union y maent i fod i’w arbed.

Minister, the three local authorities in my region are already working in collaboration. It is open to us to ask whether they are doing that effectively, but you can be sure that they are doing so in accordance with local need, local cultural boundaries and local practicalities.

Weinidog, mae’r tri awdurdod lleol yn fy rhanbarth eisoes yn cydweithio. Ein lle ni yw gofyn a ydynt yn gwneud hynny yn effeithiol, ond gallwch fod yn siŵr y byddant yn gwneud hynny yn ôl yr angen lleol, ffiniau diwylliannol lleol a beth sy’n ymarferol yn lleol.

Mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn gweithio gyda Chyngor Bro Morgannwg, ac mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell Nedd Port Talbot a chyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe yn cydweithredu gyda’i gilydd. Mae’r ddau ohonynt yn cydweithio â Chyngor Sir Caerfyrddin, Cyngor Sir Penfro a Chyngor Sir Powys, fel y dywedodd Peter Black. Maent yn gweithredu yn y modd hwn i geisio gwella gwasanaethau wrth arbed arian. Hwy sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i greu’r rhaglen gydweithio orau, nid y Llywodraeth hon.

Bridgend County Borough Council is working with the Vale of Glamorgan Council, and Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council and City and County of Swansea council are working together. The two of them are working with Carmarthenshire County Council, Pembrokeshire County Council and Powys County Council, as Peter Black said. They are operating in this way to try to improve services while saving money. It is they who are best placed to create the best co-operation programme, not this Government.

Weinidog, os oes angen cynllun penodedig i ddiwygio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a wnewch dderbyn arweiniad Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’i phartneriaid yn y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol, a chan ddefnyddwyr y gwasanaethau hynny? Os yw’r Llywodraeth hon o ddifrif am gyflawni, rhaid derbyn bod gwahaniaeth rhwng polisi a fait accompli.

Minister, if there is a need for a blueprint to reform public services, will you accept the lead given by the Welsh Local Government Association and its partners in the public, private and voluntary sectors, and by those who use the services? If this Government is serious about delivery, it has to accept that there is a difference between policy and fait accompli.

We look to you to support local government to allow it to develop the expertise that Julie James talked about, and not to impose upon it.

Rydym yn edrych tuag atoch chi i gefnogi llywodraeth leol i’w galluogi i ddatblygu’r arbenigedd y soniodd Julie James amdano, ac nid ei osod arno.

Mick Antoniw: For those of us who have experience in local government, and for those like my colleague, Julie, who have been around for rather a long time—[Laughter.] I think ‘experience’ was the word I was looking for. I have never understood the paranoia that seems to exist within the Conservative Party regarding local government reorganisation. All the major reorganisations that have taken place have been a result of decisions by Tory Governments that seemed to think that one minute it is too big, the next minute it is too small. I was involved in the most recent local government reorganisation in 1996, which was an absolute disaster. The consequences of that took five or six years to overcome—it was destabilising and millions of pounds were paid out in compensation to people who became ill as a result. Anyone who wants to start going down this road and push for the reorganisation of local government, when we have an economy that is likely to go into double-dip recession within the next six months, must be absolutely insane.

Mick Antoniw: I’r rhai ohonom sydd â phrofiad mewn llywodraeth leol, ac i rai fel fy nghydweithwraig, Julie, sydd wedi bod o gwmpas er sbel go hir—[Chwerthin.] Rwy’n meddwl mai ‘profiad’ oedd y gair yr oedd yn chwilio amdano. Gwneuthum erioed ddeall y paranoia sydd fel pe bai’n bodoli o fewn y Blaid Geidwadol am ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol. Mae pob un o’r prosesau ad-drefnu mawr wedi digwydd o ganlyniad i benderfyniadau gan Lywodraethau Torïaidd a oedd yn tybio un funud ei fod yn rhy fawr, a’r funud nesaf yn rhy fach. Roeddwn yn rhan o’r ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol mwyaf diweddar ym 1996, a oedd yn drychineb llwyr. Cymerodd bum neu chwe mlynedd i ddod dros ganlyniadau hynny—roedd yn danseiliol a thalwyd miliynau o bunnoedd o iawndal i bobl a aeth yn sâl o ganlyniad. Mae’n rhaid bod unrhyw un sydd eisiau dechrau mynd ar y trywydd hwn a gwthio’r syniad o ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, pan fo gennym economi sy’n debyg o fynd i ddirwasgiad dwbl o fewn y chwe mis nesaf, yn hollol wallgof.

Simon Thomas: On the point about the previous local government reorganisation, do you agree that that was deliberately designed by the Conservative Party to stop any kind of national Government coming to Wales, and that we need to bear that in mind when we look at the present situation?

Simon Thomas: Ynglŷn â’r pwynt am ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn flaenorol, a ydych yn cytuno bod hynny wedi ei gynllunio’n fwriadol gan y Blaid Geidwadol i atal unrhyw fath o Lywodraeth genedlaethol rhag dod i Gymru, a bod angen i ni gadw hynny mewn cof pan edrychwn ar y sefyllfa bresennol?

Mick Antoniw: I think that there is certainly an element of truth there, just as the 1974 local government reorganisation was partly about carving up authorities to give the Conservative Party a stronger foothold. However, those are old arguments. The reality is that those who believe that this is a fast move into some sort of reorganisation are forgetting the lessons that we learnt from 1996, when we saw that not only did the reorganisation not achieve a great deal, it did nothing more than to juggle things about and create five or six years of chaos, incur enormous expense, make people ill, destabilise things and lead to a loss of skills through people leaving. We can ill afford to do that at the current time.

Mick Antoniw: Rwy’n credu bod yna, yn sicr, elfen o wirionedd yn hynny, yn union fel yr oedd ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol ym 1974 yn ymwneud yn rhannol am dorri awdurdodau yn ddarnau er mwyn rhoi troedle cryfach i’r Blaid Geidwadol. Fodd bynnag, hen ddadleuon yw’r rheiny. Y gwir amdani yw bod y rheiny sy’n credu mai symudiad cyflym ydyw i ryw fath o ad-drefnu yn anghofio’r gwersi y gwnaethom eu dysgu o 1996, pan welsom nid yn unig na wnaeth ad-drefnu gyflawni rhyw lawer, ni wnaeth ddim mwy na symud pethau o gwmpas a chreu rhyw bum neu chwe mlynedd o anhrefn, creu costau anferth, gwneud pobl yn sâl, tanseilio pethau ac arwain at golli sgiliau oherwydd pobl yn gadael. Prin y gallwn fforddio gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd.

The way that we are proceeding at the moment is absolutely right. We have to look at the mindset of local government and what it can do, rather than look at what it cannot do. I agree that that is not necessarily an easy change to make. There may come a time, after this has bedded in, when we will want to look at what the future of devolution in Wales and in the UK is, but now is not the time. To go down that road at present is madness.

Mae’r ffordd yr ydym yn mynd ati ar hyn o bryd yn hollol gywir. Mae’n rhaid i ni edrych ar feddylfryd llywodraeth leol a beth y mae’n gallu ei wneud, yn hytrach nag edrych ar beth nad yw’n gallu ei wneud. Rwy’n cytuno nad yw o anghenraid yn newid hawdd i’w wneud. Efallai daw amser, pan mae hyn wedi cael ei sefydlu, pan fyddwn eisiau edrych ar beth yw dyfodol datganoli yng Nghymru a’r Deyrnas Unedig, ond nawr yw’r amser. Mae mynd ar y trywydd hwnnw ar hyn o bryd yn wallgof.

The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): I will start with the consensus politics and thank Aled Roberts for his contribution this afternoon. It was very structured and well-received. I enjoyed working with him on the regional board in north Wales and note his effectiveness on that. Julie James shared her knowledge of local government with the Chamber and the depth of that was evident in her contribution, and I thank her for that. That is the end of the consensus politics. [Laughter.]

Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Rwyf am ddechrau gyda’r gwleidyddiaeth gonsensws a diolch i Aled Roberts am ei gyfraniad y prynhawn yma. Roedd ganddo dipyn o strwythur a chafodd dipyn o groeso. Mwynheais weithio gydag ef ar y bwrdd rhanbarthol yn y gogledd a nodaf ei effeithiolrwydd ar hwnnw. Rhannodd Julie James ei gwybodaeth o lywodraeth leol gyda’r Siambr ac yr oedd hyd a lled hynny yn amlwg yn ei chyfraniad, a diolch iddi am hynny. Dyna ddiwedd ar wleidyddiaeth gonsensws. [Chwerthin.]

I am absolutely astounded at the contributions from some other colleagues today. I am not quite sure what air you breathe on that side of the Chamber, but it is not the same as that breathed by the general public, which is concerned about public service improvement, not the protection of councils and their structures. The public wants good-quality services, as I and many of my colleagues on these benches do. Residents are telling me this and, in fact, I do not know who you are representing, because, this week, I met the Vale of Glamorgan’s chief executive and its leader, who are of a similar persuasion to your colleagues on that side of the Chamber, and they left perfectly happy about the regionalisation mapping that we have produced.

Rwyf wedi fy synnu’n aruthrol gan gyfraniadau gan rai cydweithwyr eraill heddiw. Nid wyf yn gwybod pa aer yr ydych yn ei anadlu yr ochr yna i’r Siambr, ond nid yw’r un fath â’r un a gaiff ei anadlu gan y cyhoedd, sy’n poeni am wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, nid diogelu cynghorau a’u strwythurau. Mae’r cyhoedd eisiau gwasanaethau o safon dda, fel yr wyf i a llawer o’m cydweithwyr ar y meinciau hyn yn dymuno eu cael. Mae preswylwyr yn dweud hyn wrthyf, ac, yn wir, nid wyf yn gwybod pwy yr ydych yn ei gynrychioli oherwydd yr wythnos hon, cyfarfûm â phrif weithredwr ac arweinydd Bro Morgannwg, sydd o liw gwleidyddol tebyg i’ch cydweithwyr ar yr ochr yna o’r Siambr, a gadawsant yn gwbl fodlon am y mapio rhanbarthol yr ydym wedi ei gynhyrchu.

There is no lack of transparency from the Welsh Government regarding the future of local government. Our manifesto was clear. We believe

Nid oes diffyg tryloywder ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru ynglŷn â dyfodol llywodraeth leol. Roedd ein maniffesto’n glir. Credwn

‘that local representation and accountability is vital to the health of our democratic system.’

‘fod cynrychiolaeth ac atebolrwydd lleol yn hanfodol i iechyd ein system ddemocrataidd.’

Locally elected representatives play an important part in that and

Mae cynrychiolwyr a etholir yn lleol yn chwarae rhan bwysig yn hynny ac

‘have a vital scrutiny role in ensuring the more effective delivery of public services.’

‘mae ganddynt hefyd rôl graffu bwysig yn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu cyflwyno’n fwy effeithiol.’

That is on page 27 of our manifesto if you want to have a little read tonight.

Mae hynny ar dudalen 28 ein maniffesto os ydych am gael cip arno heno.

Since the election, I have made two detailed statements to the Assembly on local government and on public service reform more widely. On 21 June I said that the Government would focus on ‘clear accountability, delivery and collaboration’. I made it clear that local government reorganisation is not on the agenda and reiterated that I would push forward with the Simpson reform agenda, along with other major reviews in areas such as education and social services. At the same time, I set out the case for regional delivery and expressed my frustration at the slow pace of change. I said that we needed coherence with local health boards and police boundaries and that I would revamp the local government partnership council to drive public service reform.

Ers yr etholiad, yr wyf wedi gwneud dau ddatganiad manwl i’r Cynulliad ar lywodraeth leol ac ar ddiwygio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn ehangach. Ar 21 Mehefin dywedais y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn canolbwyntio ar ‘atebolrwydd clir, darparu a chydweithredu’. Gwneuthum yn glir nad yw ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol ar yr agenda a dywedais eto y byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen ag agenda diwygio Simpson, ynghyd ag adolygiadau o bwys eraill mewn meysydd fel addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Ar yr un pryd, amlinellais fy achos dros ddarparu’n rhanbarthol a dywedais fy mod yn rhwystredig am ba mor araf oedd y newid. Dywedais fod arnom angen cydlyniaeth gyda ffiniau byrddau iechyd lleol a’r heddlu ac y byddwn yn ailwampio’r cyngor partneriaeth llywodraeth leol er mwyn gyrru diwygio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn ei flaen.

I followed that with a further detailed statement on 13 July. I do not know whether you were too busy or whether you just did not read the statement; I think that it was the latter. However, in Plenary, I indicated the issues that I was due to discuss with the local government partnership council on 21 July. I made it clear in that statement that I wanted to brief Members before we went into recess, so I am not sure which bit of that was not transparent to you. In that statement, I informed Members of the Welsh Government’s intention to move to a common regional footprint and explained the rationale for that and how I intend to proceed. It may be helpful if I resend that to Members for another read—or perhaps a first read.

Dilynais hynny gyda datganiad manwl arall ar 13 Gorffennaf. Nid wyf yn gwybod a oeddech yn rhy brysur neu pa un a wnaethoch ddim darllen y datganiad; credaf mai’r olaf sy’n wir. Fodd bynnag, yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, soniais am y materion y byddwn yn eu trafod gyda’r cyngor partneriaeth llywodraeth leol ar 21 Gorffennaf. Gwneuthum yn glir yn y datganiad hwnnw fy mod eisiau briffio Aelodau cyn inni fynd i mewn i’r toriad, felly nid wyf yn siŵr pa ran o hynny nad oedd yn dryloyw i chi. Yn y datganiad hwnnw, dywedais wrth Aelodau am fwriad Llywodraeth Cymru i symud at ôl troed rhanbarthol cyffredin ac eglurais y rhesymeg am hynny a sut yr oeddwn yn bwriadu bwrw iddi. Efallai y byddai o ddefnydd pe bawn yn ailanfon hynny at Aelodau er mwyn cael cip arall arno—neu gip cyntaf efallai.

My statement on 13 July could not have been any clearer. I said that

Roedd fy natganiad ar 13 Gorffennaf yn hollol glir. Dywedais

‘This is not local government re-organisation by stealth. It is a better and quicker approach…joining up services to meet the needs of individuals and communities across Wales.’

‘Nid ffordd o ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn y dirgel yw hyn. Mae’r dull hwn yn un gwell a chyflymach...i gydgysylltu gwasanaethau er mwyn cwrdd ag anghenion unigolion a chymunedau ledled Cymru.’

That is exactly what Julie James said. We should not be taking our eye off the ball for reorganisation.

Dyna’n union beth y dywedodd Julie James. Ni ddylem anghofio’r pethau pwysig ar gyfer ad-drefnu.

I believe that Members will recognise that I have been perfectly open and transparent in my approach to local government, but if anyone still has any doubt, let me be absolutely clear now: not only would reorganisation be a distraction from the need to deliver better services for the people of Wales, but there is no guarantee that reorganisation would be a magic bullet either. There is little reliable evidence from anywhere in the world that larger authorities necessarily deliver better services. Indeed, experiences in many places, for instance, in France, Scandinavia, parts of Australia and the United States, show that full-scale collaboration between existing authorities has significant potential to improve services, quality and efficiency. That is what I propose to do. We cannot and should not risk organisations taking their eye off performance.

Credaf y bydd Aelodau yn cydnabod y bûm yn hollol agored a thryloyw o ran fy ymagwedd at lywodraeth leol, ond os oes amheuaeth gan unrhyw un o hyd, gadewch i mi fod yn hollol glir yn awr; byddai ad-drefnu nid yn unig yn tynnu sylw o’r angen i ddarparu gwasanaethau gwell i bobl Cymru, ond nid oes sicrwydd ychwaith y byddai ad-drefnu yn datrys pob problem. Nid oes fawr o dystiolaeth ddibynadwy o unrhyw le yn y byd bod awdurdodau lleol o anghenraid yn darparu gwasanaethau gwell. Yn wir, mae profiadau mewn sawl man, fel Ffrainc, Sgandinafia, rhannau o Awstralia a’r Unol Daleithiau, yn dangos bod cydweithio llawn rhwng awdurdodau sy’n bodoli yn barod gyda photensial sylweddol i wella gwasanaethau, ansawdd ac effeithlonrwydd. Dyna rwy’n bwriadu ei wneud. Ni allwn ac ni ddylem fentro gadael i sefydliadau anghofio pa mor bwysig y mae perfformiad.

6.00 p.m.

As outlined by Members today, there are several authorities where commissioners have been placed due to service failings across Wales. That is not acceptable to the general public and if there are Members in the Chamber who wish to preserve that element, it is certainly not my view. Where we need to intervene on public services, we will. There have been no secrets about my position during this process. The present situation of 22 authorities replicating delivery is simply not sustainable. That was confirmed by the Simpson review and other reviews, as I mentioned earlier.

Fel y soniodd Aelodau heddiw, mae comisiynwyr wedi cael eu rhoi mewn sawl awdurdod ledled Cymru oherwydd methiannau mewn gwasanaeth. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol i’r cyhoedd ac os oes Aelodau yn y Siambr sy’n dymuno cadw’r elfen honno, nid fy marn i yw honno’n bendant. Lle bynnag y bo’n rhaid i ni ymyrryd mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, fe wnawn. Ni fu unrhyw gyfrinach am fy safbwynt yn ystod y broses hon. Nid yw’r sefyllfa bresennol, sef 22 awdurdod yn ailadrodd darpariaeth, yn gynaliadwy. Cadarnhawyd hynny gan adolygiad Simpson ac adolygiadau eraill, fel y soniais yn gynharach.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Given the statement that you have just made, what is your view of the decision of Rhondda Cynon Taf to appoint a director of education and to increase his salary by £21,000?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: O ystyried y datganiad yr ydych newydd ei wneud, beth yw eich barn am benderfyniad Rhondda Cynon Taf i benodi cyfarwyddwr addysg a chynyddu ei gyflog £21,000? 

Carl Sargeant: This has nothing to do with party politics, as you mentioned earlier in the debate. I have been clear about local government making local decisions. I am creating a framework that I expect them to work within.

Carl Sargeant: Nid oes â wnelo hyn ddim â gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol, fel y dywedoch yn gynharach yn y ddadl. Bûm yn glir am lywodraeth leol yn gwneud penderfyniadau lleol. Rwy’n creu fframwaith y disgwyliaf iddynt weithio o’i fewn.

Peter, you raised the issue of the complexities surrounding education boundaries and the regionalisation of operation. While it is clear to the partnership council and all its leaders, I do not want to see the unpicking of pre-arranged decisions. This was one of them. It started many months ago and it has demonstrated delivery. The only part of the boundaries that the Minister for education has brought in is the Bridgend element. I met with Bridgend County Borough Council last week and it is comfortable with the position of regional operation. I am not sure who you are representing because that is not the message that I am picking up from leaders across Wales.

Peter, gwnaethoch sôn am y cymhlethdodau o ran ffiniau addysgiadol a gweithredu’n rhanbarthol. Er bod hynny’n amlwg i’r cyngor partneriaeth a’i arweinwyr, nid wyf am weld penderfyniadau a wnaed eisoes yn cael eu dadwneud. Roedd hwn yn un ohonynt. Dechreuodd fisoedd lawer yn ôl a dangosodd ei fod yn cyflawni. Yr unig ran o’r ffiniau y gwnaeth y Gweinidog addysg ei gyflwyno oedd yr elfen Pen-y-bont. Cyfarfûm â Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yr wythnos diwethaf ac mae’n gyffyrddus gyda gweithredu’n rhanbarthol. Nid wyf yn siŵr pwy rydych yn ei gynrychioli achos nid dyna yw’r neges rwy’n ei chael gan arweinwr ar draws Cymru.

The motion calls for a full and open debate on the delivery of public services, and I am more than happy to have that. I welcome conversation with the public at large and am happy to have that debate in the Chamber as well, and I will keep Members informed as to my future proposals regarding how we will develop these structures. However, let us not let talking get in the way of public service improvements. Let us start delivering them now. Reorganisation is a distraction and people who want to talk about reorganisation are taking their eye off the ball when it comes to public service delivery. I will not be one of them, and my cabinet colleagues support me in that process.

Mae’r cynnig yn galw am ddadl lawn ac agored ar ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac rwy’n fwy na bodlon ei chael. Rwy’n croesawu sgwrs gyda’r cyhoedd  yn ehangach ac rwy’n fodlon cael y ddadl honno yn y Siambr hefyd, a byddaf yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am fy nghynigion yn y dyfodol o ran sut y byddwn yn datblygu’r strwythurau hyn. Fodd bynnag, gadewch i ni beidio â gadael i siarad fod yn rhwystr i welliannau mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Gadewch i ni ddechrau eu cyflwyno yn awr.  Mae ad-drefnu yn tynnu sylw pobl oddi ar y prif faterion ac mae pobl sy’n siarad am ad-drefnu yn colli golwg ar ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nid wyf i am fod yn un ohonynt, ac mae fy nghydweithwyr yn y cabinet yn fy nghefnogi yn y broses honno.

Above all, we will continue to press forward with delivering change so that the people of Wales can see a real improvement in public services, on which they depend in their daily lives. Collectively, we have a role to play in the delivery of good quality services. I hope that you can support me in that process.

Yn bennaf oll, byddwn yn dal ati i gyflwyno newid fel bod pobl Cymru yn gallu gweld gwelliant go iawn mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y maent yn dibynnu arnynt yn eu bywyd bob dydd. Ar y cyd, mae gennym ran i’w chwarae yn darparu gwasanaethau o safon dda. Gobeithio y gallwch fy nghefnogi yn y broses honno.

Nick Ramsay: ‘Let us not let the talking get in the way’: that is another sound bite from the Minister, who often provides us with new things to think about in the Chamber, even if we do not always agree with them. We have had a great debate today, which many Members have contributed to, and it needed to be held, as many Members have said. Assembly Members who have a background in local government have had something additional to contribute to the debate, for example, the experience that people like Aled and Julie have. I am not going to get into the issue of whether Julie spent far too long as an officer; I will leave Mick and Julie to have that discussion again. Your contributions were very thoughtful and your points well-made.

Nick Ramsay: ‘Gadewch i ni beidio â gadael i siarad fod yn rhwystr’: dyna ddyfyniad arall gan y Gweinidog, sy’n aml yn rhoi pethau newydd i ni feddwl amdanynt yn y Siambr, hyd yn oed os nad ydym yn cytuno â nhw bob amser. Rydym wedi cael dadl dda iawn heddiw, y cyfrannodd nifer o Aelodau ati, ac roedd angen ei chael, fel y dywedodd sawl Aelod. Mae Aelodau Cynulliad sydd â chefndir llywodraeth leol wedi bod â rhywbeth ychwanegol i’w gyfrannu i’r ddadl, er enghraifft, y profiad sydd gan bobl fel Aled a Julie. Nid wyf am fentro i’r sgwrs ynghylch pa un a dreuliodd Julie lawer gormod o amser fel swyddog; gadawaf i Mick a Julie gael y drafodaeth honno rhywbryd eto. Roedd eich cyfraniadau yn feddylgar iawn a’ch pwyntiau yn rhai da.

Point 2 of the motion on recognising the importance of local government to democracy in Wales is self-evident and is clearly crucial. It is difficult to imagine Wales without local government. I imagine that the Minister, in his darkest moments, probably does imagine such a scenario in relation to certain authorities, but I am sure that the clouds lift once he returns to his office and matters of state call.

Mae pwynt 2 y cynnig am gydnabod pwysigrwydd llywodraeth leol i ddemocratiaeth yng Nghymru yn hunan-esboniadol ac yn amlwg yn bwysig. Mae’n anodd dychmygu Cymru heb lywodraeth leol. Rwy’n dychmygu bod y Gweinidog, yn ei oriau tywyllaf, yn ôl pob tebyg yn dychmygu sefyllfa debyg o ran rhai awdurdodau, ond rwy’n siŵr ei bod hi’n codi’n braf pan mae’n dychwelyd i’w swyddfa a gwaith y genedl yn galw.

Janet Finch-Saunders, in your excellent opening remarks, you managed to do two things: you managed to wind up Ann Jones, by not allowing her to intervene on her favourite subject—the roll back, or otherwise, of hypothecation in Wales—and, in your discussion on the publication of council expenses, you made some good points about Conservative-led authorities as regards the transparency of publishing expenses over £500. You mentioned Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan councils. I think that you also mentioned Monmouthshire, but I do not think that it was picked up by the microphone, but I certainly heard that. [Laughter.]

Llwyddodd Janet Finch-Saunders, yn ei sylwadau agoriadol rhagorol, i wneud dau beth: llwyddoch i gynddeiriogi Ann Jones, drwy beidio â gadael iddi ymyrryd ar ei hoff bwnc—peidio â neilltuo arian, neu i’r gwrthwyneb, yng Nghymru—ac yn eich trafodaeth ar gyhoeddi treuliau cyngor, gwnaethoch rai pwyntiau da am awdurdodau a arweinir gan Geidwadwyr o ran tryloywder cyhoeddi treuliau dros £500. Sonioch am awdurdodau Casnewydd a Bro Morganwg. Rwy’n meddwl i chi sôn am Sir Fynwy hefyd, ond nid wyf yn meddwl y gwnaeth ei meicroffon ei bigo fyny, ond yn sicr fe glywais hynny. [Chwerthin.] 

In a contribution that was, in many ways, extraordinary, Rhodri Glyn Thomas challenged the Minister to come clean on his plans for local government, and whether he intends a wholesale reorganisation. He made a technical point about different authorities sharing officers, and asked how that would work in practice if you had two authorities with different political agendas and beliefs. We need to hear more from the Minister on that issue. I will give way to Joyce Watson.

Mewn cyfraniad a oedd yn anarferol mewn sawl ffordd, heriodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas y Gweinidog i ddatgelu beth oedd ei gynlluniau ar gyfer llywodraeth leol, a pa un a yw’n bwriadu ad-drefnu ar raddfa fawr. Gwnaeth bwynt technegol am rannu swyddogion rhwng gwahanol awdurdodau, a gofynnodd sut byddai hynny yn gweithio’n ymarferol pe bai gennych ddau awdurdod gydag agenda a chredo wleidyddol wahanol. Mae angen i ni glywed mwy gan y Gweinidog ar y mater hwnnw. Derbyniaf ymyriad gan Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for giving way. You make the point about transparency in local government and the publishing of expenditure as if it is the answer to everything. I cannot agree on that because I live in Pembrokeshire and the publishing of expenditure on services there would not have revealed the mess in the education department, which has not been looking after children’s interests.

Joyce Watson: Diolch am dderbyn ymyriad. Gwnaethoch bwynt am dryloywder mewn llywodraeth leol a chyhoeddi gwariant fel pe bai’n ateb i bopeth. Nid wyf yn gallu cytuno â hynny gan fy mod yn byw yn sir Benfro ac ni fyddai cyhoeddi’r gwariant ar wasanaethau yno wedi datgelu’r llanastr yn yr adran addysg, nad oedd wedi bod yn gofalu am fuddiannau plant.

Nick Ramsay: We will have to agree to differ on that, Joyce. Suzy Davies, in her contribution, talked about the problems in Pembrokeshire. The publication of expenses will not solve every problem, but any Assembly Member who thinks that a lack of transparency and clarity in local government will bring about a better situation is misguided. We need a balance.

Nick Ramsay: Bydd yn rhaid i ni gytuno i anghytuno ar hynny, Joyce. Soniodd Suzy Davies yn ei chyfraniad am y problemau yn sir Benfro. Ni fydd cyhoeddi treuliau yn datrys pob problem, ond mae unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad sy’n meddwl bod diffyg tryloywder ac eglurder mewn llywodraeth leol yn arwain at sefyllfa well yn cyfeiliorni. Mae arnom angen cydbwysedd. 

Angela Burns spoke about trust and honesty, and gave the Minister three options—I could see his eyebrows raised as he tried to think what the third could be. The options were ‘yes’, ‘no’, or ‘let us have that debate’. To be fair to the Minister, he said more clearly in his closing remarks that he does not want wholesale reorganisation of local government. I welcome that, and think that the point needs to be made more strongly, because, as many Members have said, there is confusion in local government. Unless it has the stability of knowing where it will be in a few years’ time, then the all-important delivery of public services will be affected. Going back to Angela Burns’s point, she said that it was important that local people felt that there was transparency. Local people often do not care what level of politics they are dealing with. I know that when constituents come to see me in surgeries, they are not always aware of what my exact role is—you probably cannot forgive them for that in some ways. However, they certainly want a representative, whether it is their councillor, their Assembly Member, or their MP, who will listen to their concerns. 

Soniodd Angela Burns am ymddiriedaeth a gonestrwydd, a rhoddodd dri dewis i’r Gweinidog—fe welais ei aeliau’n codi wrth iddo drio meddwl beth oedd y trydydd. Y dewisiadau oedd ‘ie’, ‘na’, neu ‘gadewch i ni gael dadl’. I fod yn deg â’r Gweinidog, dywedodd yn fwy clir yn ei sylwadau wrth gloi nad yw am ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol ar raddfa fawr. Rwy’n croesawu hynny, a chredaf bod angen gwneud y pwynt yn gryfach, oherwydd, fel y dywedodd sawl Aelod, mae dryswch yn llywodraeth leol. Oni bai fod ganddi’r sicrwydd o wybod lle y bydd mewn ychydig flynyddoedd, yna bydd effaith ar ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, sy’n hollbwysig. I ddod yn ôl at bwynt Angela Burns, dywedodd ei bod yn bwysig bod pobl leol yn teimlo fod tryloywder. Yn aml, nid oes ots gan bobl leol pa lefel o wleidyddiaeth maent yn ymwneud ag ef. Pan ddaw etholwyr i fy ngweld mewn cymorthfeydd, nid ydynt yn gwybod bob amser beth yw fy rôl yn union—mae’n debyg y gallwch faddau iddynt am hynny mewn rhai ffyrdd. Fodd bynnag, maent yn sicr eisiau cynrychiolydd, pa un a ydyw eu cynghorydd, eu Haelod Cynulliad, neu eu Haelod Seneddol, a fydd yn gwrando ar eu pryderon.

Mark Isherwood referred to the cloak-and-dagger approach of the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011, when the Minister brought forward a late amendment that seemed to be rushed through, and which caused a lot of concern in local authorities. I remember talking to the Minister at the time and agreeing that, in many respects, it is helpful for the Welsh Government to have tools at its disposal, but it goes to show how, when you are making decisions that affect local authorities, it is vital that they are carried along with it, and that they do not feel that there is some sort of top-down approach that is not responding to their concerns.

Cyfeiriodd Mark Isherwood at ymagwedd lechwraidd Mesur Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2011, pan gyflwynodd y Gweinidog welliant hwyr a oedd fel pe bai wedi cael ei ruthro trwyddo, a achosodd lawer o bryder mewn awdurdodau lleol. Rwy’n cofio siarad â’r Gweinidog ar y pryd a chytuno, mewn sawl ffordd, ei bod yn ddefnyddiol bod gan Llywodraeth Cymru yr arfau yn ei meddiant, ond mae’n dangos, pan rydych yn gwneud penderfyniadau sy’n effeithio ar awdurdodau lleol, ei fod yn hanfodol eu bod nhw’n dod gyda chi, ac nad ydynt yn teimlo bod rhyw genadwri oddi uwch sydd ddim yn ateb i’w pryderon.

I will finish shortly, Deputy Presiding Officer, because it has been a long day. [Laughter.] Who said that it was getting longer?

Dof i ben cyn bo hir, Ddirprwy Lywydd, oherwydd bu’n ddiwrnod hir. [Chwerthin.] Pwy ddywedodd ei fod yn mynd yn hirach?

Aled Roberts spoke about the Minister having an understanding of the local government problem, but a lack of clarity on it; that has come up again and again in today’s contributions. As I said, I welcome the fact that the Minister has said that it is not his intention to reorganise. We need to have this debate loud and clear. That is why we are here today and that is why Members from all parties have contributed. Let us face it: without local government, service delivery on the ground would not be happening. Local government needs stability so that councillors and officers working for councils across Wales can get the sort of support that they need and deserve from the Welsh Government.

Soniodd Aled Roberts fod y Gweinidog yn deall y broblem llywodraeth leol, ond nad oedd yn eglur amdani; roedd hwnnw’n fater a gododd dro ar ôl tro yng nghyfraniadau heddiw. Fel y dywedais, rwy’n croesawu bod y Gweinidog wedi dweud nad yw’n fwriad ganddo i ad-drefnu. Mae angen i ni gael y ddadl hon i bawb ei chlywed. Dyna pam ein bod yma heddiw a dyna pam fod Aelodau o bob plaid wedi cyfrannu. Gadewch i ni fod yn onest: heb lywodraeth leol, ni fyddai gwasanaethau yn cal eu darparu ar lawr gwlad. Mae angen sefydlogrwydd ar lywodraeth leol fel bod cynghorwyr a swyddogion sy’n gweithio i gynghorau ledled Cymru yn cael y math o gefnogaeth maent ei hangen a’i haeddu gan Lywodraeth Cymru.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there are objections, so I defer voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cwestiwn yw a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad, felly gohiriaf bleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

We have now reached voting time. Are there three Members who wish the bell to be rung? I see that there are not, so we will proceed.

Rydym bellach wedi cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. A oes tri Aelod sy’n dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes, felly symudwn ymlaen.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM4798 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Motion NDM4798 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi â phryder bod llai na hanner gorsafoedd rheilffordd Cymru yn hollol hygyrch i bobl anabl;

1. Notes with concern that less than half of Wales’ railway stations are fully accessible to disabled people;

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

2. Calls for the Welsh Government to:

a) Wneud trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn fwy hygyrch, drwy ddarparu gwybodaeth glyweledol ac ymestyn y Cerdyn Bws Cydymaith; a

a) Make public transport more accessible, through the provision of audio-visual information and extension of the Companion Bus Pass; and

b) Hybu ymwybyddiaeth a hyfforddiant staff mewn perthynas â gofynion teithwyr anabl; ac

b) Promote staff awareness and training in disabled passenger requirements; and

3. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau ei bod yn ymgynghori’n llawn â phobl anabl a chynrychiolwyr grwpiau anabledd wrth ddatblygu unrhyw gynlluniau ar gyfer gwella hygyrchedd i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus.

3. Calls for the Welsh government to ensure that it fully consults with disabled people and representatives of disability groups in developing any plans for improvements for accessibility to public transport.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Davies, Jocelyn
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne